Is your child in the top set of a comprehensive school? Can I ask you something?

[Hakluyt]

Do they get bullied because they are in the top set?

I have been told on another thread that this is a common experience- is it?

No

Just checked with mine as they came home: 'no', in unison. Points made also include:
it's never about who's clever; it's about who's popular - that's what counts at school.
Popular children are likely to be in the top set.
Popular children who do bullying are also likely to be there - better at bullying because they are clever.
People care quite a lot about what set they are in, and want to be in the top one.

Dd1 said - 'is someone actually saying that?' and made a sort of spluttering noise at the notion.

I think people often come out with this idea of 'cool' ('at dd's school it is cool/not cool to be clever' etc) but the thing is, I think at every kind of school, it's just cool to be cool. It's not reducible to ability, sport, money or looks, though sometimes is a combination of all of those + charisma. But I think you'd struggle to find anywhere where the notion of 'cool' was homogeneous as people suggest - and if you found it, I wouldn't want my children to go there.

Very insightful post TheOriginalSteamingNit. I completely agree.

Thank you!

I am quite pleased that my ds1's experience is not the norm but sadly he was bullied for being bright, being a geek and wanting to work whilsta significant majority in his top set classes wanted to dick about instead. Thankfully he is much happier at his new school where ssuch behaviour is not tolerated and a good work ethic is fostered and there is good pastoral support for students.

I do wonder how some schools can get it so wrong whilst other schools stamp on this kind of behaviour and don't tolerate bullying. His new school is much more supportive and caring whilst also bring quite 'strict' at the same time. I say New school He moved in yr9 and is now in yr11.

I don't have a child at high school, but at my grammar school the top set girls were called swots and sneered at by less able girls who had had their nose put out of joint by no longer being top of the class like they were at primary school. The school selected on verbal and non verbal reasoning, but not on kindness or tolerance, so no reason that the kids and parents there would all be model citizens I suppose!

I just asked DD2 (just started in Y7, smart as a whip). Her reply:

"Don't be silly, it's not like the movies with groups of nerds and groups of other people. Don't stereotype."

DS is top sets for everything has friends from across the range and AFAIK has never been bullied for anything.

motherinferior

And picking up BTM's point - a comp is going to have a fair number of clever kids. That's why it's called a comprehensive.

We're only a few weeks in, but no sign of being clever being seen as anything but good. Same when I was at school.

I once taught a girl who was convinced in year 7 and 8 that she was bullied by other kids for being clever. In reality she was make my constant comments on other people's sets and test scores and was pretty smug about her superior marks. She made comments like "oh, you wouldn't know that because you're in bottom set" or "don't worry about that bit because your only level 4, that's only for level 6 people" and she always made a point of asking less able kids their marks only to say "that's a really good level...for you" She wasn't being bullied really, she was just alienating the others as her social skills were a bit behind. By year 9 she had started to settle down and by year 11 she was a really lovely girl with a nice group of friends. There is no culture of bullying top set kids at my school, almost all of the most "popular" kids are in top or second set. Most of our kids aspire to move up sets and those.

One child's subjective experience doesn't tell you much about the ethos of a school.

*Making

"a character in a play who was reluctant to speak up in class for fear of being thought clever. I asked the class why they thought she might have felt like that. Not one of them suggested that it might be for fear of being teased or bullied and when I raised it as a possibility they were astonished. "

Hmm.. on my planet they would only look astonished, especially any children who do tease and bully.

Y7 DD is a bit like that character, tends to avoid limelight, and claims that's because she doesn't want to be seen as "showing-off or boasting". Because of the modesty most children tend to like her and some appear to quite like her beating certain other (smug) children at this or that.

And of course Amber is right: it's impossible to judge how a school will go when your child has only been in year 7 a few weeks.... Oh wait.

Well ds1 went to the School for two and a bit years, came home miserable and in tears often at being unable to get work done due to kids messing around, jumping on tables in technology lessons for example or spitting in the food he made in home ec or whatever they call it now. Constant name calling and low level stuff. The school were crap at dealing with it. We didn't want to move him as it was our local school and meant to be ggood. We now pay £800 a yr for a bus to a school 6 miles away.

My dsd was relentlessly picked on for wanting to work. Not for being clever/top set, because she isn't, but for wanting to get on and listen and try her hardest. She didn't like the low-level constant disruption and chatter and distractions, and said so (not in a particularly bolshy way, just in a baffled 'why not just get on with it' way) and the rest of her schooldays were a misery, tbh.

Well the majority yes's are heartening. I was bullied for being a bright one but that was 25+ years ago (sink comp. NW England). I'd love to think it had changed. It wasn't aggressive bullying though, far more subtle. "Swot" was a definite insult, swots weren't included in certain social circles. I was constantly told by my immediate peers to "stop using big words" when I spoke to them.

I clearly remember the class cheering when results were read out and mine wasn't top. I also remember laughter if I gave an incorrect answer.

I remember whispers that kids were going to get their parents to complain about 'favouritism' and 'special treatment' when the teachers set me different work to stretch me.

It was fucking miserable.

I worked hard for the next 20 years and made shed loads of money and now shamelessly show off to the losers on facebook. Payback took years but it was worth it.

We're privately educating DDs and one of the major reasons I justified this to myself was knowing that being bright and working hard would never be unfashionable or frowned upon in a private setting (though its not without its own issues I know!)

No.

Both DS1&2 were in the top sets for everything. They were never bullied for being clever. DS2 was picked to go to a residential at Cambridge university for science, with 2 others, other pupils thought it was great and wanted to know all about it.

DS1 won county young writer of the year twice (was entered through the school) it was seen as a positive thing.

They weren't lauded they didn't expect to be!

I am sorry for the people who've had horrible experiences, obviously. But I am sort of pleased to see them, to be honest. Because it was starting to look as if I was paying people.........

One thing that does puzzle me is people's conviction that private school automatically means that it will be Ok to be clever. It certainly isn't always the case in my experience- certainly being seen to work hard is often a negative thing- if you are going to be top of the class it must be by sheer effortless brilliance alone!

That isnt something I've seen at any private school, Hakluyt. Wanting to work hard has always been accepted ime (both as a pupil and now as a parent of a pupil)

Broadly speaking, my experiences of private schools (both as former pupil and now as bill payer) have been the exact opposite of my experiences of stage schools (again both as pupil and parent).

Sorry- missed out the "sometimes" in my last post.

Not in my experience of private schools either. I have 2 DC at different schools and in both working hard is the norm. If anything not working hard is seen as a negative thing.

My dd has never said anything about bullying at her school. She is mostly friends with others in the top set, but not exclusively so. She is in a huge fully comp school in a not-posh part of SE London.

Just 2 things to add.

1. Pulling bright kids down is worse in mixed ability - where there is a huge range and people near the bottom are always near the bottom. Setting at least gives a wider range of kids a chance to shine and can mean that those intimidated/threatened by brighter kids don't feel so threatened. Usually, once people get into sets, there's more incentive to value doing well.

1. I think the culture as a whole has changed. IT just wasn't cook to be seen as clever in the 80s/90s (my school days), but there's so much pressure for kids to do well (and do much intervention if they're not hitting their imaginary aspirational target, that being good at school is something to desperately aspire to.