How clever to get into Grammar school?

[mumtobealloveragain]

Hi all, hoping for some advise please...

Our local secondary school is awful, gradually been getting worse. The nice one we thought my daughter would go to has for gradually better so much so that we now find ourselves outside of their "catchment" area as it's become more and more popular.

We have a lovely grammar school not far away. But how clever do they need to be to pass grammar school entrance exams/11 plus?

We can't afford a tutor. My daughter is bright but not genius/exceptionally so. Her 3 class year group are split into 3 ability groups for English and maths and she is in the top group for both. So she's in the top third of ability for the year. Is that enough? I'm thinking probably not and that they need to be "exceptionally" clever to pass the 11 plus?

Thanks x

To pass an 11 plus exam most dc need preparation. This does not necessarily mean paid for tuition, but it does mean doing extra work outside school, eg. Bond papers. Most 11 plus exams contain verbal and non verbal reasoning. Most bright dc can answer these, but prepared bright dc have the edge. They can answer the questions quickly, because they have seen them before and have practised on speed. You will find many 11 plus exams are tight for time, and being in the top group of a primary is not a guarantee of success. Lots of prep school children will be competing for places too.

As to how bright do dc need to be. For counties that take top 20-25% most bright children will pass if prepared, but borderline dc will narrowly fail if they don't work hard over the summer. For schools that take top 5% or above, no end of preparation will work for an averagely bright child. They have to be extremely bright and also well prepared.

The 11 plus forum will be useful for you. But be warned, it's full of extremely pushy mummies!

Depends on the grammar.

Some are super selective so if there's 120 places the kids with the top 120 scores get in.

Our local grammar has a pass mark. So 300 kids might pass it and there's 200 places. Then the 200 nearest kids get a place.

Dd passed but never got a place. I wouldn't say she's exceptionally bright. She got level 5s for her year six sats but then so did many other kids. Only 3 kids in her year passed, the other two were very bright.

She did do past papers at home and in the summer holidays I caved in due to the tales of everyone else having a tutor and got one. She only had about six sessions though. I think the workbooks made more of a difference. She agreed to do 30 mins every day in the summer holidays and did do this.

The grammar school said your child needs to be in the top 20-25% to get in.

depends on the school and you need to do your research. locally they are "superselective" without catchment so the places are filled from the top score down till the school is full.

Yes, find out what % of the cohort they take and what % of applicants and talk to her teacher.

Those reasoning tests, adult ones too, are all about recognising what 'type' of question it is so applying the right formula /approach quickly. Anyone could sit and work out the answer with enough time but there isn't time, so you need to be primed to recognise the question type, derive the anser, move on, keep going. That takes training.

This is the thread I was waiting for.
My dd is clever, not sure if bright but I am hoping she can get there with lots of preparation? I am planning to start preparing her once she turns 7. Where to get books and guidance? I don't have the means to pay for tutoring.
I really don't want to send her to the local secondaries, they are truly awful.

Tutoring or a LOT of prep (the Bond books, online resources etc) is the only way tbh.

My DS was the brightest in his year, was the only one who didn't have a tutor, and failed when a lot of children a level or so below (who had been tutored for 2-3 years) got through.

If I had my time again, I wouldn't make that mistake.

Thanks all. We definitely can't afford a tutor. I've left it a bit late, my daughter is in year 5 now and we can't afford a tutor. She's bright but not exceptionally so. I'm afraid to say she's also lazy and rushes homework so make silly mistakes.

However, she really wants to get into a good school and knows she can't be lazy and rush things if she's going to pass these entrance exams.

Can someone direct me to the best books to practice at home? Also does anyone know where is the best place to obtain past papers? She's said she will practice every day if needs be to help prepare her.

"Bond" books- is that a brand of books?

Can you say which school or which county? You will get a more accurate idea.

You need to find out what sort of papers they are for that school/area. There are different types of papers.

If you are looking to this September you might be too late. Most have already done theirs where I live.

If you search 'eleven plus exams' there is a good website of that name (and loads of others but it's the best place to start). Find your regional forum and check the types of papers she needs then download and print the free bits from there. I'm a tutor and often use stuff from there.
Bond is a brand of prep book but different bits are suitable for different areas, it really depends on the test.

If she's year 5 you probably have until the autumn to prepare. What does her teacher say ?

CGP have some books specifically for preparing for 11+. They explain how to answer each type of question and contain practice questions.

I haven't used those specific books (no 11+ for my DCs as there are no grammar schools in my neck of the woods) but I regularly use the CGP GCSE and KS3 books when I'm tutoring and I think they're really good resources.

A visit to 11+forum will give you all the info you need. There are lots of people DIY-ing there. It can be a bit scary but you have nothing to lose by trying.

Ours is mainly VR, t

Its a myth. You do not need to be clever you just need to know more than the other children sitting the exam. This can ONLY be achieved through extensive tutoring.
It does not matter how high a childs IQ is, if they cant do the Maths and English they wont get offered a place.

Sorry phones being strange
Ours is mainly VR top 20% to be certain.

Great pity because DD1 would have walked a NVR test for the price of one practice book, but she's dyslexic and couldn't read accurately enough for VR.
I can do NVR too, we're both scientists and there's a logic to them that just clicks.

DD2 could have done the entrance test if she had wanted to practice, but she didn't want the long days, to leave her friends or the grammar's HW

She thrives on being near the top of her class and she wouldn't have stood out at the grammar. She likes where she is. She'll get As if she wants them and bothers to pick up a book.

Sadly you will need a tutor. Practice papers available at WHSmiths . Make sure you practice the verbal reasoning papers and the non verbal reasoning . Our school did both . Also, for some grammar schools it's advisable to be musical, play an instrument , be sporty, play in teams for school or county , have extra singing lessons , be amazing at art and have extensive portfolio . Be dramatic and compete in local annual drama festival. It's definitely worth a try , every child should be good enough for a great education . Good luck .

I don't think that's correct Tiggy.

Where I live children need to be above level 6. Prep school children will be sitting for GS and Independent at 11, the indies require a higher knowledge in Math and English which then pushes up the level for GS.
The whole process is out of control and unfair IMO

I agree sobbing, it's unfair and more grammar schools are needed.

OP I would strongly advise going to the elevenplusexams website and researching your area. There used to be a website called chuckra with a lot of free stuff. Don't waste money on bond books if they are the wrong format for your area!

Buggedoff is correct. You won’t necessarily need a tutor but you will need to prepare. Practice papers are best. The more the better. Familiarity also offers an advantage with limited time papers. For English essay and comprehension sections it is always good to know how to score high marks. Take a look at londonmumsmagazine.com/2013/creative-writing-magic-money-cards and downloads.bbc.co.uk/radio2/500words/learning-resource-pack-2014.pdf .

Can you say which county ? Or school ?