How clever to get into Grammar school?

[mumtobealloveragain]

Hi all, hoping for some advise please...

Our local secondary school is awful, gradually been getting worse. The nice one we thought my daughter would go to has for gradually better so much so that we now find ourselves outside of their "catchment" area as it's become more and more popular.

We have a lovely grammar school not far away. But how clever do they need to be to pass grammar school entrance exams/11 plus?

We can't afford a tutor. My daughter is bright but not genius/exceptionally so. Her 3 class year group are split into 3 ability groups for English and maths and she is in the top group for both. So she's in the top third of ability for the year. Is that enough? I'm thinking probably not and that they need to be "exceptionally" clever to pass the 11 plus?

Thanks x

None of the grammars test level 6 material though, do they? They present problems which I guess could be answered in a different way by someone with more experience, using techniques taught at level 6 and level 7, but could be answered equally well by using techniques taught at level 5.

I do look at my current year 6 child and wonder what on earth he is going to learn in maths in the next 18 months.

You don't need to pay for a professional tutor, but you do need to do some research and preparation.

A regular grammar is worth a try for a child who is in the top third of ability and is well-prepared for the test.

Find out what subjects are tested, in what format (standard or multiple choice) and how many questions in how much time.

Set aside a time each week (will probably need to be a hour if you only have eight months to do it in).

Go through one topic a week in each subject (e.g. one Maths topic, one VR question type). Check she knows how to do the questions and give her some to practise.

By the summer, she should be building up to doing a practice paper each week. Teach her exam technique: not spending too long on one question etc.

kitchen you couldn't be more wrong about all the extra curricular stuff. State grammar schools neither know nor care if a child is musical sporty or whatever when they allocate places. It's only on the exam.

If you can tell us roughly what area you are talking about, we should be able to provide more specific advice.

Oh, and if it's a state grammar school, extra curricular activities are completely irrelevant Even for appeals. It's evidence of academic ability only

Mine only went for sixth form, the extras were vital for all. The more you had on your "extra list " the better your chances
Lots of friends have same experience though but as our school had 200 more applications than places the top academic marks weren't enough. We are not in London and have only one girls grammar in our county so very popular

So sorry. I didn't mention what area. We will be applying for grammar schools in Surrey. Which isn't great from the advice so at it appears they are harder to get into than Bucks and Kent.. Thank you all I will have a good read of all your advice later this evening once the kids are in bed. X

If you have to resort to a tutor to get your child into a grammar you may find that you are setting your child up to fail. If they are not nautuarally bright they may find the level and pace of stuty to hard and fall behind over time. By all means use the bond books etc but only as a measure as to your childs level/standard.

Although we don't actually live in Surrey, we are close by and there are no nearer grammar schools where we are. I'm hoping the fact we don't have a Surrey address won't stop us. We aren't far from the Surrey border x

How to assess a child's 'brightness' at a primary level?

Thanks tiggy it's for my daughter

These days it is nothing to do with 'cleverness' - it is all to do with preparation and practise.

Sorry Tiggy. I know GS require only a level 5 but Indie school children (most of which will sit for GS as well as Indie) are covering level 6 therefore the state school children need tutoring to that level to be in the top %.

Op, I don't really , but all I'll say is that none of our three older ones got into grammar school despite 135+ IQs and scoring up to 139+ on the entrance exams for the competitive independent schools they ended up in. So I really have no idea at all.

Op, I don't really , but all I'll say is that none of our three older ones got into grammar school despite 135+ IQs and scoring up to 139+ on the entrance exams for the competitive independent schools they ended up in. So I really have no idea at all.

Should add dd2's school is in the top 40 schools in the uk but the grammar scores higher.

It depends really not only on the school but also the year. I have known some distinctly average children get in with coaching. One of my dd's was offered a place she she is just a hard working middle ability pupil who didn't even get coached.

We are not a super selective area.

Just to be clear, the so called Surrey grammars are not in surrey. Most are in the London borough of Sutton. This is important because not everyone gets the same number of school options to put on their CAF. Depending on where you live, you can put between 3 and 6 schools on your CAF.

I'm afraid that I would agree that well prepared and motivated rather than bright is what will get someone into the grammar schools over the next couple of years. I would also consider carefully what you are looking for, especially if you are also looking at a lengthy commute.

"Mine only went for sixth form, the extras were vital for all. The more you had on your "extra list " the better your chances"

Either this is in an area I don't know anything about- or things have changed.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere it was level 5 equviliant for them? I was level 5 in everything, I was a bright child but I don't think a bit if tutoring would of done me any harm. If the local secondary is terrible there's no harm doing a bit of prep work is there? Luckily my DS is well off going secondary school but if the non grammar's stay as bad as they are here now (they are terrible, a few made the 100 worst) i'd probably give him a bit of prep to for the test.

Hi OP. I hope the following helps:

First go to the website of the school and check out which papers (e.g. VR, Eng, Maths only or NVR too or writing paper too) and the format of the 11 plus e.g. multiple choice or standard, plus the duration of each paper and the relative weight given to each paper.

Second. Starting in Year 5 is fine. If your child sits the exam in the Autumn term, there is ample time to prepare and familiarise with the process.

Third. Preparing at home without a tutor is fine too as long as your child genuinely is motivated to sit the exam and is prepared to go for it. Some kids love VR for example and it can be made into a game.

Fourth. In addition to preparing for the test, keep injecting lots of fun into it e.g. go onto fun websites www.thelogiczone is a good one and do logic puzzles from the newspaper. Write fun messages in code to each other - and change the code logic often...do treasure hunts with coded clues.

Fifth. For Maths, Eleven Plus Exam Group (search online) does good practice papers. For Verbal Reasoning, the best we found were those published by Walsh (again, search online). Bond is good for English papers.

Sixth. Read to your child the books that may just be a stretch so that you can enjoy literature together, talk about it and extend vocabulary. Go to the library and feed the reading habit. Put a dictionary by the bed.

Seventh. Start off with a few untimed (leisurely pace and spaced out over days) practice papers PURELY to assess gaps and so you know which areas need work. Thereafter, don't spend hours doing exam papers. A few weeks before the exam, do a dummy run under exam type conditions. That way, little details can be ironed out.

Finally and most importantly. Keep the process pleasant and unstressful. Don't practice when your child is tired or desperately unmotivated. Keep the sessions short and pick your moments! Make it clear that this is a journey that can be fun and that the journey is far more important than the exam. Stress and disappointment are crushing. Your child will learn so much from preparing for the exam, that whatever the outcome, you will have provided a wonderful foundation.

Bonne chance!

PS Ask the school what the average pass mark is so that when you get nearer the time you have some idea as to how your child is doing.

"as our school had 200 more applications than places..."

LOL this is a different world - over 1,600 applicants sat the exam for 150 places at Tiffin Girls in 2012 (the same for boys), I believe it was even more this year.

The Sutton grammars are less pressured - similar numbers of applicants but over 400 places across the schools for each gender.