How clever to get into Grammar school?

[mumtobealloveragain]

Hi all, hoping for some advise please...

Our local secondary school is awful, gradually been getting worse. The nice one we thought my daughter would go to has for gradually better so much so that we now find ourselves outside of their "catchment" area as it's become more and more popular.

We have a lovely grammar school not far away. But how clever do they need to be to pass grammar school entrance exams/11 plus?

We can't afford a tutor. My daughter is bright but not genius/exceptionally so. Her 3 class year group are split into 3 ability groups for English and maths and she is in the top group for both. So she's in the top third of ability for the year. Is that enough? I'm thinking probably not and that they need to be "exceptionally" clever to pass the 11 plus?

Thanks x

talking peace, once my internet is back I can copy and paste the admission criteria here but from what I understood from their website, some % of the places are allocated to high scorers on Y6 exam, some other % to sibilings and the remaining % to local children. Well, I live in the school's borough but I am not so local and dd has no sibilings there so it leave us with the pressure of doing well in this Y6 exam. But maybe this is me misunderstsnding the rules?

Sibling is admission code
distance is catchment
ANYTHING involving exams = not a comp

phew, thank goodness I live in a proper comp area
if only more of the country had the same luxury

Oh kitchensink maybe I should just adopt PiLs approach and dont give a shit about my child's education, send my child to a horrible school and let her be bullied by peers and teachers because her dyslexia will be mistaken for stupidity. But dont worry. Once she is at home she can enjoy her childhood watching as much TV and playing as much games as she wants. I can also turn a blind eye for her playing truant and going off to experiment alcohol and drinks . So maybe she will turn out just like my Dh with very low self esteem, not knowing how to use her potential and working her ass off in a long hours menial bad paid job. Or maybe I could follow my own mother example who let me drop off a good fee paying school to go to a less than mediocre comp just because I didn't want to do homework. She believed that I was old enough to make choices and mistakes. Guess what? I am paying a very high price for the mistake I made and I would rather more guidance than freedom at that point.

Vixxxen
If your DD is in year 2, find a way to move into Hart Council : comps and the best quality of life in the country

Lots of schools are also partially selective and allocate 10% of places based on an exam allowing children who live too further away the chance of a place. Quite a few have music, art, drama and other aptitude tests to allocate 10% of places as well.

Not in this county
we have "comps" as in comprehensively providing for every child in the area or is edges

wow
I now understand why Hampshire districts whump so much of the rest of the country on "quality of life" measures
we are much less stressed than poor parents subjected to such stresses

I think my DDs would be very bewildered by the idea of anyone feeling sorry for them! DD1 loves her grammar school and is so happy she goes there, and DD2 is certainly not stressed or overworked in her eleven plus prep. I don't think we should judge other people's education decisions. For many people, grammar school can provide educational opportunities for their children that they could only have dreamed of, so they are understandably going to do everything they can to help them gain a place there. I agree with not pressurising children, but a little extra work is not going to kill them, and a place at a grammar school can open doors. It's not for everyone, but I don't think that wanting the best education for your child is a crime.

For many people, grammar school can provide educational opportunities for their children that they could only have dreamed of, so they are understandably going to do everything they can to help them gain a place there
If only that was true
but it was barely true before the 1970's and is certainly not true now.

Too many, far too many threads about prep schools not getting all the kids into grammar school and thousands of pounds spent on tutoring show the reality of selective schools in England.

tiggytape - I wish what you said was true. Your sentiment exactly reflects where I was 3 years ago until experience challenged my view. Sadly, SOME bright children who need a bright cohort for motivation to perform tend to fail in broad spectrum cohorts.

lowclouds
the "cohort" that DCs are in is broad spectrum, but the classes they are taught in are not
and the sets vary depending on ability in lots of subjects,
rather than the narrow selection of topics in the 11+

TalkinPeace - even so, even so. Top cohort in local comp not even close to providing same cohort, same level of education or attempts at motivation. Capped at L 7 for Y 9 (except in Maths), whereas local grammar levels at actual level ie L 9 + EP if necessary.

V what are you talking about . Obviously children need a good education but reading this thread I fear for them. And I expect lots of these parents could afford to pay school fees but just don't prioritise .
Passing exams isn't everything. All four of my children got 12A*s at gcse but that's not everything . Children need to grow and develop their personalities instead of just focusing on exams.
There are lots of great schools not everyone needs to force feed their academic extra to go to grammar.
Places are over subscribed and taking to a friend who is head of a local boys grammar , he says he would rather give a place to a boy who will play rugby for the school rather than one who won't .

Lowclouds
Top cohort in local comp not even close to providing same cohort, same level of education or attempts at motivation. Capped at L 7 for Y 9 (except in Maths), whereas local grammar levels at actual level ie L 9 + EP if necessary
that is a failing of an individual school, not comps
and actually if there are "local grammars" its not a comp

MrsRuff, we have paid for private education for four children . Only the last two went to a grammar for sixth form.
We prioritised , sometime not having holiday etc.
I thing good education is important but some of these poor kids are being pushed so hard the life squeezed out of them. It's a sad state of affairs.

TalkinPeace - Grammar in different but adjacent county. Thought I said local comp not comps.

Kitchensinkmum- If you can afford to pay to put four children through private school then you have absolutely no idea of the horrible situation many of us are faced with! Really we are worlds apart.

We cannot afford private education for even one of our children. It's not about sacrificing holidays, we don't always have a holiday either!

Our local comp schools are absolutely dire! The good schools are highly sought after and we can't afford to buy a house close enough to get a place.

So, I am happy to spend the next year helping my daughter practice exam questions, do extra homework, try even harder etc to help her get into Grammar school.

She has a good childhood , lots of fun and good times, great siblings and friends, I just want her to have a good education too!

Also depends on your primary school in a way. My dds school always have a high proportion of children going to grammar. Out of 15 girls, 8 went to grammar and 6/15 boys.
The other primary schools in the town nearer the grammar, they might only send 2 or 3 in total.
Have you spoken to the head about it specifically in relation to your dd? Our school was very experienced in assessing as so many go if that makes sense

Mumtobe, you sound sensible , but some parents on this thread sound way to pushy for words.
For affordable adulation for girls look at the girls day school trust .
Most private school offer assistant for talented or able children with a family income below a certain level. A girls in one of my daughters classes was on a full Bursary with school uniform and lunches paid for .

Is getting a full bursary at a private school less competitive than getting into grammar?

May not help, but I tried the Sutton grammars for my DS, who is sitting level 6 SATs for maths and will leave school with either 5B or 5A for both writing and comprehension. As you probably know, these aren't exceptional scores, but they do suggest an academically able child who would get into a grammar were places plentiful - like your DC, if I understand you correctly, a "top table" child, but not top of the class.

DS passed the Sutton grammars selective eligibility pretest (which identifies, IIRC, the top 750 kids out of about 2,500 applicants), but failed the individual papers for both Wallington County and Wilson's. My guess is that his English wasn't up to scratch at the time.

We've since done quite a lot of work and gone the independent route, which clearly is at a tangent to your thread: but the 11+ forums are helpful, and there are lots of mothers who have done the drill at home with their DCs on Mumsnet as well. For what it's worth, I'm fairly certain that one thing that scuppered my DS was that his literacy was lagging his maths.

My ds has passed his 11+ and will (hopefully) go there in September. We are in an area of superselective, so best scores get in, regardless of distance from school.

ds is bright, but not that bright, he will get level 5s at the end of year 6, maybe level 6 in maths, but his school is giving extra help to get that. He goes to a local primary, not in a leafy middle class area.

We did not do the intense tutor thing. I started in Jan year 5, we researched very carefully which tests and then bought the books and worked through the different question types. He found the verbal reasoning easy, and did well.

He does, however, read very well and has a wide interesting vocab. He also is good at maths and well drilled in things like times tables.

I will self tutor dd nest year too, at the moment I am trying to get her really good on times tables and get her to expand her reading a bit.

We found the elevenplus website really helpful. It really tells you exactly what you need to know for your area. unfortunately for you, I think our area is easy than Surrey.

They do say that 11+ is won and lost on vocab, so downloading sets of useful vocab from the 11+ forum and learning 10 per week, is very effective.

It really does mean that you have to commit to 2 or more hours per week work at home, which my ds wasn't very happy about.

I would second what steppemum said. Vocabulary was, and continues to be, DS's downfall. It affects not only creative writing, but also the verbal reasoning tests. If I could do it all over again, I would have had him learn 20 new words a week, paying particular attention to those that can be a verb or a noun like "bear" for example. (10 a week would be better, but your daughter is already in year 5 so you have only got 9 months.)

yes, agree with the words that have more than one meaning.

also pairs of words that mean the same/similar

and pairs of opposites

But that is assuming a verbal reasoning component.

If the other schools in grammar areas weren't so spectacularly shit, parents wouldn't have to push so hard for their kids to pass the 11 plus.

I grew up in a non grammar area. My school was nothing special, but all the local schools were similar-ish. The gulf I can see between the local grammars where I live now and the excuse that passes for a school that my DSs attend is appalling. DS1 is (hopefully) going to achieve A grades at GCSE. If he does it will be no thanks to his school. I was promised that as one of the most able children in his year, he'd get extra tuition. Never happened. He will only have 8 passes, that's the max he can study at his school. Grammars do 11 or 12. He has had no opportunity to do anything other than football outside school, there are no clubs or societies. He asked to do a D of E award, there were 15 places for a year of 180, picked in a ballot, so again he lost out.

I am now facing an uphill struggle to get him into a grammar 6th form. I have had to get him a tutor for several GCSE subjects as his teachers are uncapable/unwilling to teach him to A grade standard. His school isn't even the worst in our borough, so you can imagine what some children have to endure.

If I could go back, I'd have had him tutored from 8, like all the others in his class were. Or done anything I could to scrape together enough money to send him to private school, where teachers actually make an effort and the culture of low expectation is absent.