How clever to get into Grammar school?

[mumtobealloveragain]

Hi all, hoping for some advise please...

Our local secondary school is awful, gradually been getting worse. The nice one we thought my daughter would go to has for gradually better so much so that we now find ourselves outside of their "catchment" area as it's become more and more popular.

We have a lovely grammar school not far away. But how clever do they need to be to pass grammar school entrance exams/11 plus?

We can't afford a tutor. My daughter is bright but not genius/exceptionally so. Her 3 class year group are split into 3 ability groups for English and maths and she is in the top group for both. So she's in the top third of ability for the year. Is that enough? I'm thinking probably not and that they need to be "exceptionally" clever to pass the 11 plus?

Thanks x

You could move to Bucks! Much better chance. Here there are plenty that are not tutored, especially the further North you go in the County. Many parents prep the children themselves.

Our local grammar has a ratio of 3 to 1 success. ie c. 300 applicants would result in c. 100 successful applicants.

Our local grammar currently has over 2000 applicants for 100 places. The likelihood of your child getting in all depends on how selective your school is. But please don't worry, DD1 started preparing in the January of Y5 and got a place, so it can be done. And she says that her friend who was tutored for 4 years is unfortunately struggling now at the school. It all depends on the child, but you shouldn't panic. DD2 is less academic than DD1 but has made it to the last round of the grammar school stage (she may of course not be offered a place) and she only started preparing in the January as well, so it can be done.

Some good advice from others, eg LowClouds, above. One thing I would say is that the difficulty of the different VR and NVR books varies a lot, so make sure you get the right level. On some papers, my DDs were scoring 99%, on others 65%.

The most important thing is to keep the pressure and stress levels down. My DDs found the eleven plus process very tedious and dull, but never stressful.

The best of luck.

I should add that, whilst my DDs are fairly bright, they are by no means geniuses, so you don't need to be all that clever to get into grammar school. It's more about them becoming familiar with the syllabus and format of the exam.

Depends where you are, what the schools are like, how many places etc.

Here in Kent is is fully selective so nearly all the kids do the test and I think the top 25% get into grammar.

We have a super selective school as well. Ds is dyslexic and school refused to acknowledge this for many years so despite being very clever, he didnt pass.

Your dd sounds very bright, I would try and find out the exam setting board for your area and get some practice books that are aimed at that board's exams. (ours are set by GL assessment I think - try WH Smith website for different ones)

If you can get her to try a few papers from those, and see how she gets on, you'll have a better idea.

We didn't use tutoring, as I hated it, but lots of people did. We just did a few papers at home. Well as much as he could stand but I didn't force it too much. With a dyslexic child it won't go in unless you approach it in a specific way which unfortunately I don't know. So it was a bit pointless for us.

Good luck and don't hang about as she will be sitting the paper in the Autumn I imagine.

Hi rooners, were in Kent too. They take it in year 6 here, September.
Dd passed, just scraped maths, and went to a grammar with no super selective status. The maths is key I think, our school didn't teach what they needed so she had to learn additional things they didn't do until year six (too late).
Worst choice ever for her - I paid for group tutoring once a week over the summer, and papers for home. She isn't into working which I didn't take into account and so the grammar place is lost on her. She would have been much happier in the secondary.
Ds passed, got over the super selective score . In year six he is a level six. I didn't realise he was so clever. He did online practise twice a week with bofa.

There is lots of information on the Eleven plus exams website

Also, I would say try to get to a bit done each morning when the child is less tired.

If maths is part of the test your child needs to know everything to the end of KS2, so revision guides and workbooks for year 6 will be needed if you want to do the tutoring.

There is plenty of time left to plod through at a steady rate, but it will mean your child doing some work in holidays and at weekends.

Having had a child do several 11+ exams last year I am now of the opinion that those who are prepared to put in the work deserve to get in.

I agree with this from Rabbitcar
"I should add that, whilst my DDs are fairly bright, they are by no means geniuses, so you don't need to be all that clever to get into grammar school. It's more about them becoming familiar with the syllabus and format of the exam."

My eldest went down the grammar school route, passed the 11 plus with an average grade as she found VR to be hit and miss - it was a bit of a miss on the day. She decided not to go to grammar school though we got offered a place, she's now one of the high flyers at the local comprehensive and is on a path that may lead to Oxbridge as she's now year 10 and getting A/A* grades in old GCSE papers that they use for end of term and end of year exams.

Grammar school is not the be all and end all, if you've got intelligent children who will work hard and take education seriously then you've got just as much chance as doing well IMO.

Also, where they end up at eleven will not determine the course of the rest of their lives. DD1 is in Y8 at grammar school, and already 3 girls have left and others have taken their places. There is a lot of movement over the years, but I think many of us (including me at one point) are guilty of over emphasising the significance of the eleven plus. Also, I know it has been said before, but children who are fortunate enough to be bright will generally do well wherever they end up.

I heard that a child needs to be working two years in advance of the expected level. Not sure if this is true.

Different grammars have a different pass mark. Our DS got into a good grammar which has a firm middle pass rate.

In his year 2 sats he got 3's for English and high 2's for the rest. His cat scores were 100 (average) 118 (above average)
127 (just under very high)

Fascinated to see that quite a few mention CAT testing at the KS2 level. Is this administered by the school or commissioned privately? How is the information used? Is it to determine whether pupils are achieving potential? How is it funded?

it's unfair and more grammar schools are needed
no thankyou
we have none here and its much better that way.

OP
there are Grammars and grammars
you need to narrow down exactly which type yours is and talk to them.
If you are in a fully grammar area, the other school is of course a SecMod, but it might just do really well with its upper set - some do. Others do not.

YOure absoluteky rifpght Onesie, It really does depend on the school.

We are a non-grammar area, but live on the edge of an our LA with a super-selective grammar. Typically 15 applicants for each place.

DD1 went to selective independent at 7+. When she moved to secondary (above average comp) at 11, was 2 years ahead.

DD2 (yr6) is at a good community primary, ended yr5 level 5a in Englush and 5c maths. Top of year in English by far, expecting to sit L6 English, possibly maths too.

Neither did the grammar test. I've no doubt DD2 at least would have fitted in well academically at the grammar, but couldn't see either of them passing the entrance exam.

I'm afraid that even 'top group for everything' children can't necessarily bank on that being enough to pass the 11+, especially in areas where the exam consists of curriculum-based papers (Maths and English) as well as, or instead of, verbal/non-verbal reasoning.

Not to do with how bright they are, but because many state school children will not have covered the relevant areas of the curriculum by the time they take the exam.

Some of the things that come up in the 11+ maths paper in our area e.g. Mean, median, mode and range, adding and subtracting mixed fractions, and more complex (i.e. not 10%) percentage calculations, I'm not sure would even be covered at ds's school by the end of yr6. I'm having to teach him, after a fashion. (maths dunce here!).

Isn't there a pushy aren't thread you could all swop too . Omg have you all gone mad ? I feel so sorry for all of your kids .
What about their quality of life.
Two years ahead oh dear oh dear.
Just let them be children. Have you heard yourselves. It's terrifying !!!!!!

*parent ...

Dear Kitchensinkmum.

Your tone of voice is far more terrifying.

Kitchensink, The schools are driving this not the parents. Have you seen a selective independent exam some of the questions are GCSE standard.

I wish they didn't exist too
We moved out of Kent four years ago and being in a none grammar area is so much fairer. My son got all level 6s in the year 6 sats without a tutor. He was assessed e d of first term yr 7 at 8c working towards end of yr 8a.
I really don't believe all naturally bright children get a place in the Kent grammars, it's unfair and heavily biased towards those that can afford to and will tutor

At least some of the new genaration will be well educated. It is a shame, a good education should be available for all but in some parts of the country the state secondaries are dreadfull in ALL aspects. Unfortunetely my daughter doesn't have what it takes to get into a Grammar but even to go into a good comp in my area she needs to do well in a exam. She is now in year 2 but I am starting with preparing her at home. And yes she still have a good childhood. Much better than I ever had.

kitchensinkmum: sometimes the choice is the child's. DS1 really wanted to go to a particular school. He loved it when he visited it and was willing to work hard in preparation for the test. He asked for a tutor, which wasn't financially or logistically possible, but I promised to help him as much as I could. He is in Y9 now and very happy there, so I have no regrets.

even to go into a good comp in my area she needs to do well in a exam
sorry?
please name the comp that has an entrance exame and we can ALL report them to the Dfe and Ofqual

What about their quality of life.

Yes, kitchen? What about it? Mine will have a great quality of life at the sink school they will have to attend if they don't pass the 11+.

Is it pushy to want a decent education for your child? We're not all lucky enough to be in the catchment for a brilliant comprehensive, like you are (I'm assuming?).

please name the comp that has an entrance exame and we can ALL report them to the Dfe and Ofqual

Most of our local 'conprehensive' schools are partially selective. You either have to have a sibling already there, live within about 300m or score high on the exam. There are a few non-selective schools left, but they are further away and tricky to travel to.