bursaries... would this piss you off?

[Gef]

One of the mums at DD's school, her daughter has a big bursary, I think they pay 20%.

but... mum drives a newish car, always wears labels (north face coat etc), and now daughter is probably going on a school trip to Australia
(cost £3000), which my DD won't be going on, because we can't afford it what with the FULL FEES we struggle to pay...

Go on, MN, crucify me, I know I am going to be told it is none of my business, and maybe it isn't, but I think they must have fiddled the figures when they applied for the bursary because they seem to have a lot of disposable income.

In fact unless they're giving a full bursary they're not going to want someone to be on the breadline because they'll want them to be able to pay for the rest without it being too perilous

you're right it's none of your business. Unless you have a full breakdown of family income, who owns the car, whether the clothes were gifts etc you can not determine whether the bursary is deserved or not.

Ds is on a full bursary, on the paperwork it says the school may at times also offer financial assistance for school trips and extras which would be of benefit to the pupil. in our case this has not happened for a trip but the school did offer additional funding on top of fees so my son could take part in a particular sport.

Car might be a company car, they are always new. North face may be fake!

I wish schools would keep it confidential it leads to no end of bitterness and jealously. I don't blame OP for feeling that way. However I have been on the other side of it. One of my children was given a full scholarship in primary school. It was not means tested and included all uniform, trips etc. It had been advertised locally as the school was fairly new and trying to attract pupils - we applied and our child got it, because the Head really liked me and my kid. We were badly off financially at the time and could not have afforded it anyway. I don't know how they found out, but other parents were insanely jealous and did anything possible to put the knife in -saying horrid things about my kid's abilities and also running, bitching about me personally to the Head. It was all very unpleasant and a great relief when we finally left the school.

OP I don't understand why you can't afford the trip to Australia - you have good jobs a nice house and dc in private school - what an earth are you spending your money on that you can't afford the trip - t is madness.

It makes me wonder if you have any money sense at all or you just fritter away money like water?

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not nice having someone go over your finances and wondering how they do this or why they can't afford to do that - it's called nosey parker

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"I wish schools would keep it confidential it leads to no end of bitterness and jealously."

Well, in the case of the OP it is the mother who has told everyone. Also, if your child knows there is no way to guarantee they've not told someone who's told someone else... DS1 had a good scholarship. He knows which other boys in his class have scholarships and what level and also whether some have bursaries. It will only be the boys who have told him this.

We have a scholarship (academic test) and bursary (means tested, form filling!). It is totally confidential and my son only knows about other people's situations because the boys have talked about it amongst themselves.
We have a new car (replacing one on its last legs) - due to an unexpected inheritance. My son is going on a trip overseas - because his grandparents offered to pay for it. You cannot judge other people's financial situations on appearances.

I think I would feel the same. Maybe they are self employed. It is far easier to appear to reduce your annual income when you are not on someone elses payroll. there can be alot of offsetting

or as someone said they could live beyond their means.

kez100 - yes, you've got it - it is a limited pot of money and entirely at the school's discretion.

Even when the Government had an assisted places scheme there were more candidates of a suitable standard than there were funds available. And it happens with things other than education (ever tried for a lottery grant: you can tick all the boxes, but still be turned down if funds go to an even better project at the time you apply and there's no money left.

Some schools are attempting a full 'needs blind' scheme (guaranteeing bursary for certain income bands), but none in UK has yet managed it (see the Sutton Trust for information on this, they are champions both of return of assisted paces and also of 'needs blind' admission). The trouble is, you need a huge bursary pot to be able to underwrite 'needs blind' and make a genuine undertaking to fund. It's much more common in US, where philanthropic giving to one's old school is also more common.

"mum drives a newish car, always wears labels (north face coat etc), and now daughter is probably going on a school trip to Australia"

Even if they drove an old car [it's too racy/vintage], wore old clothes [you'd have to have a country estate to get them worn down like that] and were not going to Australia [on alternative prestigious thing instead], there are ways aplenty they'd fall foul of the "deserving image".

It's the school's funds, but you can influence how they use them by withdrawing your DD. Or, as others have said, apply for a bursary yourself.

OP, you know nothing of the actual ins and outs of the family finances.

I was at school on a scholarship - we were dirt poor, and it was badly needed. but I still had 'extras' - music tuition and trips - because my grandparents, or aunts/uncles paid for them.

my dss was at school as a full boarder, and we ended up needing a bursary. we had just bought a brand new car (nothing flash, but it was new), and were having a shedload of building works done on our house. there were reasons for both of these expenses - reasons which we had to lay out to the school, in full detail.

dss went on his fair share of school trips, and several holidays a year (more with his mother than with us, although she couldn't help out with the school fees ); he wore designer gear (again, supplied by his mother) as did my dsd, his mum, and dh's suits are generally not off-the-rack ones. I am sure that many may well have questioned the need for a bursary, if they had known. but it was needed.

appearances can be vey deceptive indeed.

Some people always put on a show of having money (hence the car, nice clothes etc..) even when they don't.....

Hi - just in reply to the view - why wouldn't all poor parents with bright childrn be chomping at the bit to get their children into private school...

1 - Selective schools often wont take children with special needs - many parents prefer to sned siblings to the same schools, therefore any bright child with a sibling with special needs is unlikely to apply.

2 - Being the poor parents at the school gates is torture.
3 - Being the poor child at school could be awful.
4 - The additional school holidays are a killer - any working parent on a low income will struggle to pay for holiday clubs and extra child-care.
5 - We're all comfortable with what we know - state educated parents know the state system, they know what to expect of teachers, what they can ask for in terms of stretching bright children, how the governing body works, etc
6 - Travel to school - could be costly, could be pratically impossible if you've one child who gets into independent and one or more in state.

The foundation which owns DSs school provides in excess of £4million worth of bursaries each year, across 3 schools. It is still not enough to give funding to every child who needs a bursary.

OP I think you've been slightly attacked here for your posting. Although I agree with most of what is written it is human nature to wonder how this family got a bursary.
There are some other factors you may have not taken into consideration; do they have other DC's in the school, length of time at the school perhaps they joined before you when the school just had a larger pot of money, obviously as already pointed out although scholarships don't usually carry financial rewards anymore you are often more likely to get a bursary if you have a scholarship and finally the elephant in the room this family lied on the forms when applying!! I have been frequently asked "what stops you from lying?" Ok its difficult to hide wages. cost of mortgage, and also equity in your home but you could if you were so minded not declare things trust funds etc. Obviously its fraud but plenty of people commit fraud in other areas so why wouldn't people do it to get a bursary? Lets face it people do all sort of other things to get their DC into the "right" school. Having said this at the end of the day I suspect there's nothing you can do about it.
What is also of interest is why you didn't get one. You say this family are only paying 20% (although I note in your OP that you say think they're only paying 20%) that is a fairly hefty reduction and IME only given by schools who are generous with their bursaries. Can I suggest you go and talk to the bursar again discuss your situation with him be honest if the answer reminds no ask why. Lets face it you have nothing to loose.

I just had a look at the website of a private school near me and in the bursary section it stated that not just income and value of property were counted, but that a full audit of all assets and other sources of income were investigated. It sounds as if they'd had a few "creative" applications in the past.

I guess some people know how to play the game. If I were a bursar I'd look long and hard at anyone self-employed who claimed to be living on tuppence ha'penny. Also, I don't see why they'd rather not have a fair number of clever pupils each receiving a bit of a discount, rather than one lucky person getting the full whack - unless that pupil was a genius.

One bursar once said to me that when parents turn up to visit the school in a new Aston Martin and then moan on about fees etc he just laughs. Many I understand now visit your home so you would have to hide the Monet!
I suspect many bursars can smell fraud although with so many more applying perhaps its becoming increasingly difficult.

"There must be something which stops all reasonably clever children of poor people from all applying "

The fear of this sort of school gate snipery? Of having a school bursar peer into every aspect of your finances 'smelling fraud'? Wondering whether people will be advising other parents to report you anonymously 'like with benefit cheats'? The need to keep your child looking like the poor relation in case of the above? The fact that your child may well then be exposed and sneered at for having less money (as does happen)...

OP - maybe having a bursary means they only have to pay 20% of the school trip costs!

Why on earth would any school organise a £3k school trip to Australia? Talk about divisive!

"Of having a school bursar peer into every aspect of your finances 'smelling fraud'? "
Bursars are entitled to look into your finances especially if your receiving like us a £21 000 reduction. I have nothing to hide they can search my attic for the Monet and my whole village for the aston Martin and every Swiss bank for the trust fund I don't have any of those things. If your not guilty you have nothing to fear. We're just an average middle class family working hard to pay school fees.
My DS is a school with some of the wealthiest families in the UK not once has anyone sneered at him in fact his Housemaster recently commented on his popularity with all. He doesn't look like a poor relation just an average teenager.

"There must be something which stops all reasonably clever children of poor people from all applying "

All the rumour mongers spreading guff about What Private School Is like If You Are Not Wealthy probably don't help.