Is this a reasonable question to ask a Secondary school, and should they be able to give me an answer reasonably quickly?

[seeker]

We like in an all selective area, and 23% of children go to grammar schools.

Would it be reasonable for me to ask the High School what % of their cohort are likely to start year 7 with level 5 SATS?

GCSE's and A Levels are unfortunately geared towards pupils "knowing stuff" also, innate intelligence without the ability to regurgitate large chunks of information won't help you there, either...

Yes, indeed yellow. The houses in catchment for our nearest high achieving comp are eye watering. We already live in one of the most expensive places in the country anyway, but the right catchment will add a huge % to your house cost.

But even then, you might not get in. There is a faith element to admission which not everyone can achieve.

Academically advance was a bad choice of words. What I meant was thatnyou have to know stuff to pass the 11+. it is not a test of innate intelligence.

My objection to privat education is political and philosophical and not based on 3 bad experiences. I could list an equal number of good ones.

Joannapancake, I don't understand your red herring post

Word factory. If you can find where I have berated anyone simply for choosing private education I will be amazed. I agree I have berated for the sentiments that sometimes accompany the choice: everyone could do it if they tried hard enough/ cared about their children enough, there is a complete range of socio economic groups at private school, private schools hand out 100% bursaries like confetti- you know the sort of thing. But for the choice alone, never.

I don't understand the whole high school, comp meaning anyway.

The large local secondary round here is known as a comp. It does have a top stream like a grammar stream though, which in your view makes it a high school. There are grammar schools 10 miles from it.

tbh they are all secondary schools which if your child is wanting to work hard and achieve they could do very well.

If you have dc like a couple of mine, you just know they wouldn't bother!But the schools themselves around here are all pretty much the same if you don't pass your eleven plus. And I believe I am possibly near where you are seeker.

"I don't understand the whole high school, comp meaning anyway."

Might I respectfully suggest you read the first few posts of this thread? I think it's explained quite well there. And there isn't anything called a comprehensive anywhere near me as far as I know. I would be delighted to be proved wrong.'

but what i am saying is they are all much of a muchness.

do they get taught subjects in a comp that they don't in a high?

If i am in a gramar area which i am, i have never heard of the large seondary near me called anything but a comp

a comprehensive school is one where anyone can go to it.

a grammar school needs an exam to get in.
a High school as we know it in the selective region is the school you go to if you either don't get into the grammar or if you fail the exam.

they're all state schools.

in non-selective area, high schools have different meanings (in Nottingham, the High school is a public school but I know of High Schools that are comprehensives in other towns)

we also know them as community schools.

@nikel I think sometimes people forget that terminology is not consistent across all regions.

you're right - it used to confuse me no end that people would refer to this high school, and it be a community school.

nickel agreed.
Where I came from the secondary schools were often called "[name ] High School" and all of them were Comprehensives (not a Grammar school area)

sites.cardiff.gov.uk/ysgol/Schools/SchoolSearch/DoSchoolSearch.asp?School_type=s

Everyone of these schools is a comprehensive

sorry "Every one"

I think some people are not getting the point that when you are in an 11 plus area, not putting a DC in for the 11 plus is not opting out of the selective system.

So to illustrate very crudely, let us take 100 children across the ability range from 1 to 100. In a comp area, all 100 go to the same school. The very bright children (say 1-20) are streamed into one class and benefit from this in terms of pace, peer group etc,. The children in the lower streams are taught at a pace that suits them, but they still have the same teachers, resources etc. If child number 40 is a late developer he/she can move to the top set.

In a grammar school area, however, children 1 to 20 are streamed into a separate school rather than just s separate class. (In reality it is probably not 1 to 20 but maybe 20 out of the top 25, given some will under-perform in the test like Seeker's DS, some choose not to sit it, move into the area, different type of intelligence etc).

Therefore opting out of 11 plus is not opting out of the selective system because child A who ends up in the high school is with children 21-100 (I appreciate too crude a way to describe children), and although there may be a few other children who would be in the top stream in the comp, the top set in that school is on average well below the top stream in the comp. which inevitably affects the pace at which that set can be taught, and there will be different teachers, facilities etc. Unlike the comp, child 40 does not have the ability to move to the top stream as it is at a different school

SO what Seeker is saying is that she would opt out of 11 plus if DC could go to a comp with children 1 to 100, but opting out of grammar to go to high school with children 21 to 100 is not the same thing. It has the downsides of the selective system and so is not electing out of the consequences of the selective system.

Sounds perfectly logical and consistent to me.

It is all very interesting.

Innate intelligence. Hmmm. Unfortunately, parental input and expectation, social class, experiences etc etc are far more important in "bringing out" that "innate intelligence" to whatever extent it exists.

So, even if a test for innate intelligence could possibly be devised, which it hasn't so far, imagine you get two kids A and B, with the same innate intelligence.

A has parents who know the syllabus, buy the textbooks and revision guides and supervise homework, cart A round museums, take A abroad etc etc

B goes home to an empty house, no books, put the telly on...

A is going to do better.

You can put them in the same school and class and A will do better.

Maybe one B in ten million is driven and motivated enough to beat A.

That's the real problem.

That doesn't mean that all As should go to one school and all Bs to another. Just that it's all very difficult.

Maybe ds is a different type of bright, seeker, maybe he's not that fussed about academic subjects and will do better with others.

my dd's best friend failed the gs test and is now at the comp-that-isn't and is doing core subjects plus pe, business and I forget the others, but she will no doubt be running an international chain of training gyms in a few years and putting her powerful brain and interests to work that way.

Hully - yes you are right, of course, but if B doesn't know what they're capable of, and is put into the high school, then they will never know they can beat A.
If A and B go to the same school, B is more likely to "get" the idea.

Seeker: did you hear the programme about secondary schools on R4 the other day? It was so encouraging and uplifting, such an antidote to all the angst we put ourselves through. Will try and find a link ...

R4 programme about how much "difference" a secondary school makes to a child's education and their future

Friends, don't get too hung up on the nomenclature - like almost everything in Britain, it is charming tainted by historic anomaly:

       There are several comprehensive schools around the country which have kept the word "Grammar" in their name.  Also many paying schools were once state but kept the name (Like Manchester Grammar).

       High Schools means the school is or once was part of the three level system (Fisrt (Y1-4), Middle (Y5-8) and High (Y9-13)).  This is contrasted to the two level system (Primary (Y1-6) and Secondary (Y7-13)).

       Community College is meant to mean Comprehensive which does Adult Education and extra activities, but few of them actually do.  Still gets paid for it though.

@MsBobbiHarlow again, you are assuming that things in your area are the same everywhere else. :) In some parts of the country, the middle school system was for years 4-7, the High for years 8-11 and there were sixth form colleges for 12-13. In some areas there are 'community schools' which do not have a responsibility for adult education, never did, and don't get any money for this (because the FE college in the same place covers that).

Probably the only terminology that is consistent across the country is 'reception'. I think everyone means the same thing by that. I could be wrong though.

Can I confuse the issue by just reminding you guys you are describing what happens in those parts of the UK that follow the English system.

Scotland has no selection process for state schooling at all. Except, of course, living in wealthy areas.

Nor do we have reception. Or Yrs 1 to whatever.