Is this a reasonable question to ask a Secondary school, and should they be able to give me an answer reasonably quickly?

[seeker]

We like in an all selective area, and 23% of children go to grammar schools.

Would it be reasonable for me to ask the High School what % of their cohort are likely to start year 7 with level 5 SATS?

that's not right, pickled.

At my dc's school, speed and depth are determined by set.

And having a set full of very bright kids definitely spurs them on.

I think mixed ability only works when it is done very thoughtfully and consciously. And when you have critical mass in all abilities.

When it's not done well or you don't have that critical mass, it's a disaster.

I have no idea if this is generally true or not, but I have found in my own dc's school, that they have a great many more friends than before as there are a great many more children similar to them, in terms of outlook, ethos, philosophy etc

"Competitive instinct? Compete with yourself, try to beat your own personal best"

Yeah right. Show me a child that can really do that, consistently, in anything. You strive to beat the competition in front of you. Yes, you might strive for 100% on things, sometimes, but that is just on tests, etc and only really works in right/wrong subjects like maths - you are not going to get the breadth and depth of subject coverage unless you have a group of DC working at a similar level. It's the same in sport - a runner training with a group of people far slower than themselves will not achieve as much as one training with people at or slightly above their level.

In sets that take the same exam the speed must be more or less the same, no?

No, they take the exam at different times, plus there are different levels (foundationa nd higher), plus the sheer range and depth is handled differently.

Grammar schools do not improve social mobility for the cohort as a whole when compared to comprehensive schools because the advantage for the minority of being in grammar is outweighed by the disadvantage of the majority being in a secondary modern.

www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_releases_for_journalists/110302.html

Full text
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-4446.2010.01346.x/full

If there is a good secondary modern that recognises that some children are late developers or weren't ready for exams at 10 and caters for those who are of similar ability to the grammar school children then that is fine.

Seeker - are you in Kent - if so could you try for Cranbrook as that is 13+ entry (State day and boarding school) if you think your DS really didn't do himself justice?

By same exam I meant either foundation or higher.

What is the point in speeding through the material anyway? I would say that the speed at which material is covered is dictated by schemes of work which are most likely the same for all sets doing a particular tier.

""Competitive instinct? Compete with yourself, try to beat your own personal best"

Absolutely. Perfect advice for the natural scholar. A little unrealistic for a real life human boy who is clever, enjoys school and is reasonably eager to please, but also loves to be a clown, would rather be playing football and is as distractible as most 11 year olds!

In my dd's school, for example, there are 7 Maths sets. They are all aiming for As at GCSE, but the lower the set the smaller, so they are doing the same work with increasing levels of individual attention and time.

pickled, they don't "speed through" they work at a pace that stops the children becoming bored...

pickled speed is very different if different sets.

Take MFL. A top set might 'get' a new concept like past perfect tense in a wekk's worth of lesons and one focussed homework. There is no ppoint going over and over and over. But lower sets will need much more time.
Yet they will all aim for a GCSE.

I agree with wordfactory - you only need a few similarly abled children for it to work. Dd moved from a selective to unselective school at her request & with reservations from ourselves - she felt like a genius there (her words) but absolutely flourished. She is generally a work-shy and laid back type as well.

the point is in this area, there is no choice.
you can't risk not putting your child into the 11+ if you think they're capable of it, because then all you're left with is the other schools.
they're called "community schools" quite often, but they're certainly not comprehensive.

They are starting to move that way, though, some of them have a "grammar stream" for those who passe the 11+ but didn't go to the grammar schools (showing, incidentally, that those schools are oversubscribed as it is)
Grammar schools get better support, and more money.
that's why it's not fair.

But the government's stats and tables are still based on gcse passes, so of course the grammar schools are going to look better, and therefore have more ploughed into them, because they've got the more academically capable students!
If the other schools had a way of gaining favour with the government tables by virtue of more vocational subjects being included in them, then that would be fine, but the whole world is revolving around the gcses.
which isn't practical and isn't fair.
it's basically saying that if you don't have these golden exam passes then you're worthless.

so she is taught in mixed ability groups and is doing really really well - achieving A*s alongside those getting Ds. Maths & science she often has to explain to her friends which really helps cement her own knowledge. They do go at a slower pace I guess, but as they all take GCSEs at the same time and there seems to be enough time to cover the syllabus so why does this matter? OK it's just anecdotal, but my limited experience suggests bright children will find their level wherever (unless there's too much disruption I guess).

In fact, from my own point of view, I wouldn't have passed the 11+.
but i'm a fricking genius.
I don't do well at exams. really, really not.
I don't have a single A at gcse.
I would have been written off if i'd been down here at age 10.

I might not even have bothered trying hard in any of my subjects, because to fail that 11+ is to subvert yourself to complete failure.

why would you want a 10 year old child to feel like a failure before they've even tried to do anything with their life?
15/16 at gcse is slightly different - most children by then know their failings and know their triumphs. they know what they're good at, and they've been given tailored education, actually learning something along the way in that subject.
the exams done for the 11+ don't actually prove anything, and they certainly don't give that child a knowledge of anything except how to pass an exam.
If you dn't have much money, you can't afford the "practice papers" and that means you can't learn how to pass the exam.

You can nickel. There is the marvellous website chukra (now renamed to 11+ something) whish was set up specifically to provide full FREE help to all kids sitting the 11 plus. There are hundreds of free papers, free online tests and short videos explaining all the different types of verbal reasoning tests and how to do them.

It was set up specifically to counter money and tutoring.

@nickel You say you have no As at GCSE yet you are a 'frickin genius'. By that I assume you mean you think you have got a lot going for you other than academic ability (obviously not empathy though). Well, that's great for you. But what about the kids who are very very academic? Wy are you so keen to remove their opportunity to have the sort of education that is right for them just because it wouldn't have been right for you?

The grammar schools don't just deal with the "very academic" ( not sure what thqt means when you're talking about a 10 year old!). They take the top 25%.

Land it's not just about getting free practice papers. It's about knowing that's what you have to do, having a computer, , the child having space qnd peace to practice the papers, the parent having he knowledge to help, the parents having the spare energy and time to support, the parents being able to overcome the programming thwt "grammar schools arn't for the likes of us"......that's why grammar schools typically have

Glaurung It's great to hear that mixed ability groups work, none of our secondary schools set classes (except maths in one and PE in the other). I have a son of slightly below average ability and I did think that maybe he'd get lost, so lovely to hear something positive

i don't say remove it.
i say let them have it alongside their peers.
there's nothing wrong with streaming within the comprehensive system.
the point is that it means that you can see where your talents lie before you are streamed.
if you are great at passing exams at 10, then whoop-de-doo, but what happens if actually, you struggle with particular subjects, and you're now in a school that you can't handle?
if you'd gone to a comprehensive, that would be picked up.
maybe you're brill at maths, and crap at english?
there are a lot of children who have been tutored in passing the exam, and aren't necessarily that good academically.
why? because their parents know they have to get into the grammar school!
(or at least make that assumption)

not good for the children, not good for the schools, not good for the future.

(by fricking genius, i am academically clever, but i am CRAP at exams. i can't do them, because i crack under the pressure and can't remember a bloody thing. immediately i leave the exam room, i remember everything and come up with amazing answers for the questions i just fucked up)

@seeker where you live, maybe. Not where I live. Much of the discussion in this thread is about grammars in general not just Kent (or wherever you live).

In most grammar school areas that is the case. Only a few have super selectives, and obviously Reading is a special case.

@Nickel using those criteria I am an Olympic athlete, an artist on a par with Picasso, and a musician the equal of Paul Leenhouts.

I understand from reading mumsnet that lots of young people are tutored for schools such as Tiffins. That isn't the case for the school my DD1 goes to (although there are quite a few people in her year, certainly, who went to private primary schools so I suppose you could hard that as tutoring of a sort). And she is alongside her peers. The people she isn't alongside include the ones who bullied her at primary school for being a Boffin and a geek. I'm fine with that.

I have found that too, theta. One of the things my dc like the most is not being the "clever" kid any more.