Dilemma... 'more average' sibling to follow super-bright brother to same school, or somewhere else, with a chance to 'shine'??

[fluffyhamster]

I'm sure we're not the first to have had this dilemma..

DS2 has been/ will almost certainly be offered places at two schools, and we can't decide.

• School 1 is a local independent with an excellent reputation (Top 100 in the country). DS1 is already at this school. Doing well (is super -bright with top scholarship etc) Excellent facilities - esp. music & drama (which DS2 is into).

We weren't sure that DS2 would get offered a place, but he has. However we know that he was in the bottom 20% of those who passed the entrance exam. I worry that he might struggle a little, will always be towards the bottom, and constantly in DS1's shadow. It also seems to be a school where you need to 'find your own feet/ stand up for yourself'. DS2 is not massively confident, and may find it hard.

• School 2 is a local voluntary aided school with fantastic facilities and above average results. Rapidly getting even better, but not the same academic pressure as school 1.

We are lucky to be in the catchment for this school - parents lie and move to get their kids there . Feels a bit more nuturing. Is smaller. I think DS might feel less stressed and more confident here. But he may not 'stretch' himself enough if he can get away with it (he has a tendency to follow the path of least resistance...) Music & drama isn't as good though.

The other consideration is that DS2 is very young (August birthday) and it feels as if he may still be doing some catching up vs. his peer group.
The change in him over the last year has been massive, and in another year it might seem as if he could have coped better with school 1?

I just can't decide.
School 2 would obviously cost less too, but I couldn't bear it if in later years DS2 accused us of sending him to a 'less good' school to save money!
Any wise words?

@seeker on the OBN - absolutely. If people don't get affected by it then lucky them. It definitely exists.

@happy I wouldn't blame you if you had a low opinion of DD1s school if it was based solely on the quality of the school website (which is tied into the LEA website system and is genuinely woeful in every way). The website isn't the school though. Since the school gets so much less funding per head than schools in the rest of the country, I'm glad so little of it is wasted on a website.

Back to the OP if she's still listening!

School no 1 no question. Absolutely agree that state non selective isn't the place for a child you are worried may "struggle" at all.

He wants to go. Let him.

Happygqrderner-it was this remark of yours that I was questioning

"Yelowtip and BandB perhaps can you provide me with the evidence that your schools provides as rich an education as my DS2 school.". but I agree- you can't possibly compare the boarding experience. My dd's school does provide a wide cultural experience but of course that is carried on at home- we provide what your ds's boarding school.

"School no 1 no question. Absolutely agree that state non selective isn't the place for a child you are worried may "struggle" at all. " It's this sort remark that really gives all private school parents an often unfair bad name. Words fail me!

"@happy I wouldn't blame you if you had a low opinion of DD1s school if it was based solely on the quality of the school website"
I haven't got a low opinion of it because I've not read it! I looked at two webs sites both boys grammars in the top 10 nationally (I only do boys) its not the structure and organisation of the website that I was commenting on. I looked at dates for diary section at up and coming events to see what is offered in top state schools. As I've said already this is not a pissing match I just believe that people who post that the state offers the same as independent schools are saying this because they don't actually know what these top schools offer. TBH until my DS went to one I hadn't really grasped myself what they offer, OK having spent 6 yrs at a highly regarded prep you've got a vague idea but its all very nebulous its not until your actually there do you realise how massive the difference is.
In fairness to the state sector and as a public sector worker myself who is currently drowning under endless changes of tack/paperwork/new regulations/meaningless jargon inflicted by our current/previous government I do think that this sort of thing must also have an impact on state schools as well; the way they manage them and the individual staff. Independent schools are of course free of all of this and I'm sure this has a huge impact on the staff.
For example I have already commented on the jargon free conversations that I am able to have with my DS's teachers. This matters to me they talk to me as we are on equal terms, in a language I understand, we address each other by our first names, I feel that in the event of a problem we are working together to solve it or even better they're not expecting me to solve it they're solving it. In contrast when I speak to the staff at my DS1 school they only contact me at certain times of the day; when I'm at work and unable to take private calls (the other day I had 8 messages in a day from a teacher) when I left a message saying I couldn't talk till someone till after 6 pm I was told that this was not possible; stalemate and yes the staff are very helpful and informative and they obviously know my DS although I do have to keep asking them what X and Y actually mean and if they promise to do something they always do it. But somehow something is missing I just don't feel its a partnership I don't feel we are on equal terms maybe they slightly patronise me I just can't quite put my finger on it. I sometimes get off the phone feeling vaguely uncomfortable for a reason I cant explain. Maybe its just me and maybe I'm just a rubbish parent and just don't want to be involved that much therefore boarding suits me and that why I'm happy and feels its better. Having said all of this I still think and in fact know that my DS2 has a million more opportunities as do other in similar schools than the state sector can ever provide. If you think about the fees are £33 000+ a year so its inevitable.

Finally I don't know any teachers and I'm not actually criticising them, in my occupation we are becoming increasingly demoralised and indignant by this governments current activities this of course has a knock on effect on our day to day working life and I'm sure it's the same for them.

seeker do you provide what he has?
I am obviously unable to provide the exact details but even if you lived in London, have an unlimited budget and never had to cook a meal, load the dish washer, or do the shopping etc etc. all those things that families do just to function you would be hard pushed to do it. Remember these schools employ people whose job it is to organise all these extra activities. If they want to do a lecture about for example Venetian architecture they probably know who is the current expert, they have the facilities to run it and enough interest to put it. They can do it at a time that is convenient to the children and in the school so the children can just walk there. They can put on 5-6 plays a term, God knows how many concerts which the children and in fact parens can watch for free (ok we pay school fees so ultimately not free), they have the space to invite well known artists to exhibit their work I could go on. This happens day in day out, week in week out at my DS's school. No family carry on this on at home after school. The opportunities are endless and in fact my DS is unable to attend all of them.

@happy If you didn't look at DD1's school then you didn't look at the top performing grammar (when considering both GCSE and A levels). And boys do go there. Although DD1 has a pretty low opinion of most of them right now. She's at that age. And so are they.

@happy if you are happy with your choices then that's great. I do not believe you have bought your DS a million more opportunities than my DCs will have, though.

I didn't look at your DD's school website because obviously i don't know every school in the UK. The two I looked at are names frequently mentioned on MN with great reverence because of their outstanding results and as I say both are in the top 10 of state school nationally and one is where my DS2 was offered a place. I'd of happily looked at your DD's if I'd known which school it was.

I would really like to know what goes on at your DD's school what opportunities are offered because I happy to except that maybe I'm wrong.
We are all entitled to our opinions thats what makes MN such fun.

I didn't actually go to Old Palace thetasigmamum, I was a direct grant pupil elsewhere. Bit purist to point it out I know :)

My experience is that you can't judge a state school by what is on the website. Whether it's a grammar school, a comp or a primary school. It's the sort of thing you don't spend money on if you operate in a poorly funded area. This does not mean that schools aren't providing cultural opportunities for children, just that they are not spending time and money keeping a website up to date.

All that glisters is not gold, you know. Personally, I'm much more concerned with substance over form.

@Yellow - they had a vile uniform in my day so perhaps you were lucky!

And also, if I was paying 33k for my child to be educated I'd expect the extra curricular activities to be bloody good! And if I chose to invest a quarter of that into my own children's extra curricular activities, they's be bloodygoodtoo.

I have an absolutely excellent idea of the private sector happy. Gosh, you do make assumptions! It seems to me though that you genuinely don't know what makes a top state school tick. A HT successfully leading one of these schools is not going to get ground down by goverment dictat, it just doesn't happen. And what on earth makes you suppose that parents can't converse effectively ('jargon free') with the teachers? And as for first names! . It seems to me that you have a very ill-informed view indeed. It's quite interesting to cast my mind around the adult lives of the Wykehamists I've known, and the Etonians, to try to divine the chasm which (by your reckoning) should exist .

But seeker you told me to quote "that is carried on at home- we provide what your ds's boarding school."
"I'm much more concerned with substance over form"thetasigmamumyou think I'm not? What am I paying all this money for? I can assure you its not this much talked about old boys net work. I too am very aware of all that glistens is not gold and will freely admit that many indies are no better than good state schools including the non selective.

By the way I'm not saying its right or morally defensible that a few should have so much based on their ability to pay although many offer bursaries. But we have been lucky to be offered a once in a life time opportunity and only a mad man would turn it down.

@happy I think you are paying the money for the trimmings. I think you think the trimmings are the important things. I think you are wrong. I think that the fact that neither you nor your DH believe that the OBN exists is more to do with the careers you are in, than with the existence or otherwise of the OBN. The OBN certainly doesn't extend everywhere. Where it does concern itself, though, it is supreme. I work in one such arena thus I know this for a fact.

It seems as though you have correctly identified that cultural capital is an important element of education but are incorrectly assuming it can be bought if you chuck enough money at it.

happygardening, I suspect our differing views come from the fact that I am a very highly educated teacher. I don't need my dcs' teachers to converse with me 'jargon free' and I couldn't care less whether we address each other by first or surnames. I know their school is good enough that the academic teaching is good enough that I am not required to teach them up to A* level in all the subjects. There are also a huge range of extra-curricular activities offered at a very high level - my dd, like your ds, has a choice of several every day but can only choose 1.

Where our dcs' experiences differ IS in the time spent outside regular school hours - I don't think we can have this debate without mentioning boarding, because it is fundamental. You feel that your ds's school can offer him cultural/intellectual stimulation that he could not get otherwise; I know that I and my family give my dcs our personal choice of cultural and intellectual stimulation that no school or teacher could give them as well as we can; i also call it 'family life' and have no more wish to miss out on this aspect of their lives than I do their first steps. I love discusing poetry with my kids, taking them to the opera, galleries, museums, on holiday, walks in the country etc etc - this is not a chore I'd rather delegate to a qualified professional, this is my way of sharing the deepest experiences of living with those I love most! We have fabulous discussions every day about politics, history, in foreign languages - it is stimulating, engrossing, enriching for all of us - myself in particular.

Why on earth would I wish to pay a fortune to deprive myself and my dcs of this enrichment?

I am deliberately leaving out the emotional loss I would feel, as I understand that is a more personal matter. But it is simply nonsense to suggest that an educated and interested parent is a poor substitute for a salaried teacher - I AM a teacher and enjoy my job, but never more than when i am teaching those whose progress I care about so passionately and whose interests so closely reflect mine. As a parent i don't wish to abdicate my responsibility to teach my children the values I hold dear - spiritual, political etc - as well as the handing down of the wider corpus of cultural and academic knowledge - this is surely fundamental to what it is to be a parent?

I don't get why you would think it better that your ds learnt all this from a stranger, who may not share your values and interests. I really don't.

Re the cost, it neeed not be expensive eg Opera Holland Park offers free tickets to kids over 9 AND their parent. The library and ebay can supply free or cheap books, and of course the countryside and conversation are free!

It is expensive in terms of time but then if you don't need to earn the cost of school fees you probably have more free time anyway. And what better way to spend your time?

Breadandbutterfly- you said what I wanted to say so well. If my dd wants to learn about Venetian architecture I can sort that for her without forking out 33k!

well I never. I came back to this thread to see what the OP had decided re her DS. I am astounded at the "debate" that has opened up on the back of the OP's dilemma. I think the OP's stance was that it wasn't an argument about the relative merits of state vs private but rather a decision between the two different schools available to her son. Or am I missing something ?

It seems to me that breadandbutterfly's supremely eloquent post has just won the debate hands down.

@seeker @bread exactly. Although I must admit that my conversations with my DCs are rarely conducted in a foreign language. I say rarely. I mean never.

"I love discussing poetry with my kids, taking them to the opera, galleries, museums, on holiday, walks in the country etc etc - this is not a chore I'd rather delegate to a qualified professional, this is my way of sharing the deepest experiences of living with those I love most!"
So do I it?s not a chore I am proud that with both my children I do all of these things and more because I too am highly educated and articulate and talk about all of these things too. This is why I sent my DS to his school to continue the education we started; the chance to hear a famous politician talking about the current economic crisis, even if you don?t agree with his analysis, the opportunity to hear a leading world expert discuss a famous artist, the opportunity to go to regularly to plays that would never come on at the West End these and many more are opportunities my DS has on a regular basis. But having said all of this I listened to my DS preparing a presentation on an 18th century painting the other day, he had chosen a particular painting that?s not overly well known. ?Why that one I asked I thought it was the surrealists that you loved?? ?You told me about it.? I don?t even remember doing so but I was so proud to hear that all I have and had done is not in vain.
By the way I do completely understand that as parents of non-boarding children those of us who choose to send our DC?s? away to school? particularly an all-encompassing full boarding school must seem a complete anathema to you, reminiscent of a bygone era where children were seen and not heard. Why do we do it I hear you asking? Are we just callous uncaring parents? Are children must so dysfunctional! IME none of us are that and few children I have met are dysfunctional we choose a different way of education for our children and although it may not be your way or in fact the ways of the vast majority it is for us as equally as valid as your way. Years ago my DS was in hospital for a day there were my two DS?s my DH and myself and we were playing a silly board game. On being discharged the nurse was asking my DS?s what school they went to, on hearing that they full boarded (aged 8 and 9) she was completely taken aback; ?I can?t believe it in all my years of nursing I?ve never seen such a happy family.

It all sounds wonderful. However I would rather my child had slightly less exalted extra curricular activities and more of a home life- and in her case, a leading politician would be little competition for her beloved pony!