Dilemma... 'more average' sibling to follow super-bright brother to same school, or somewhere else, with a chance to 'shine'??

[fluffyhamster]

I'm sure we're not the first to have had this dilemma..

DS2 has been/ will almost certainly be offered places at two schools, and we can't decide.

• School 1 is a local independent with an excellent reputation (Top 100 in the country). DS1 is already at this school. Doing well (is super -bright with top scholarship etc) Excellent facilities - esp. music & drama (which DS2 is into).

We weren't sure that DS2 would get offered a place, but he has. However we know that he was in the bottom 20% of those who passed the entrance exam. I worry that he might struggle a little, will always be towards the bottom, and constantly in DS1's shadow. It also seems to be a school where you need to 'find your own feet/ stand up for yourself'. DS2 is not massively confident, and may find it hard.

• School 2 is a local voluntary aided school with fantastic facilities and above average results. Rapidly getting even better, but not the same academic pressure as school 1.

We are lucky to be in the catchment for this school - parents lie and move to get their kids there . Feels a bit more nuturing. Is smaller. I think DS might feel less stressed and more confident here. But he may not 'stretch' himself enough if he can get away with it (he has a tendency to follow the path of least resistance...) Music & drama isn't as good though.

The other consideration is that DS2 is very young (August birthday) and it feels as if he may still be doing some catching up vs. his peer group.
The change in him over the last year has been massive, and in another year it might seem as if he could have coped better with school 1?

I just can't decide.
School 2 would obviously cost less too, but I couldn't bear it if in later years DS2 accused us of sending him to a 'less good' school to save money!
Any wise words?

I went to a good state school, my brothers went private on scholarship. We got the same results, got into the same highly competitive course at top university. I have no resentment, I knew my parents had considered my options and the local private girls school was weak in many subjects.

Just go with your gut feeling, OP.

You mentioned that you think one of DS2's issues is that he's young for the year. Is deferring for a year an option so that he goes to DS1's school a year later as the oldest in the year?

Appreciate that he may well rather swallow razor blades than be held back and would only work if the current school is independent, but it could be an option.

From your description of the two schools, it would seem that if DS1 were not there, you would choose school 1 as it suits DS2 better. It also seems that you are not really convinced (and neither is anyone else) that Ds1 being there is at all relevant.

Does that help you choose?

I think thirdhill's way of thinking about this is very useful. If there were no DS1, which school would be the ideal school for DS2?

I have listening to a girl friend talking through her choices for her DS1 and DS2 recently. Her DS2 cannot continue at the boys' present school (too challenging) and she doesn't want her DS1 to stay there forever either - she wants them in an entirely different system. But she definitely wants them both in the same school again pretty quickly. The best way to think about it for her was to list all possible school options individually per child, and then to choose the school which was top for one child and closest to top for another.

If you put him in school 2 and he is not happy there for whatever reason then he will always resent you for sending him to a 'lesser' school than his brother (however well intentioned your reasons). I attended a state school albeit one with a selection exam. It was regularly in the 'top 20' state schools lists following exam results with many pupils gaining 100% A/A* grades. I was one of those who probably scraped in though. I was always in the lower half of the class and was largely ignored by a teaching staff who rewarded academic excellence. My self esteem probably suffered slightly as a result of this. However, I still enjoyed my time there though, made good friends and I think I probably achieved higher exam grades (As, Bs and Cs) than if I had gone to my local comprehensive school. I don't regret going to that school. I think you should send your son to the independent school. He is probably well aware of his own limitations so it won't come as a surprise to him that he doesn't shine like his brother, just make it clear to him at report/exam time that he shines in your eyes just as much as his brother does.

You need to send them to the same school I think. Especially as they are both DSs. I say this as the parent of a DS1 (bright) and a DS2 (not so) who are both at the same school. Their sister goes to another school because it is all girls, so there is a specific reason iyswim....

You can't say to DS2 later in life 'we didn't send you there because we didn't think you would cope/be happy....'

How can you say that now? Give him - and the school - a chance. He will get different things out of it than his brother. And it will give them a common bond - the mad teachers, the funny assemblys, the school events - they will have a shared history there that I am sure will bring them closer.

In our case, DS1 is bright and doing well academically, but he is not really a joiner of clubs. DS2 on the other hand is also holding his own but he has thrown himself into school life (DofE, french exchanges, after school clubs) in a way his older brother hasn't because that's the kind of personality he is.

Same school, different experiences, shared history.

(Or if you think DS2 is always in his brother's shadow, why not send them both to school 2? Would you do that?!)

Thanks - there are some really good points here. It does seem that school 1 is the right choice.

I suppose my concern comes from the fact that school 1 just seems like the senior version of the prep school he is at now, and I'm never really sure quite how happy DS2 is at his current school?
He's quite arty & free-spirited, and dislikes the rules, regulation & routine of school! As I said earlier, he tries to get away with doing the bare minimum e.g. with homework etc. But then a friend of mine said that's just typical for a 10-year old boy!

My judgement is just completely skewed by having had DS1 first... he's the sort of child who just has massive curiosity about things and if asked to do an A4 page about the solar system will probably come back with a 20 minute powerpoint presentation, complete with videos, as he found it 'so interesting'

I have no doubt that school 1 caters for it's bottom 20%. For example, I know they stream in Maths and the 'bottom' set may have as few as 10-12 kids in it, to allow them all to be given more 1-to-1 help. DS1's 'top' set has closer to 20!

I just hope DS2 can find his own 'niche' in drama or music or something.
It's really our responsibility to try to stop him constantly comparing himself with his big brother.

You have absolutely answered your own question. Your ds2 wants to go to the same school as his brother. End of.

Plus you say the sport and drama are good there, and ds2 likes those. Even more end of.

Same school DS2 wants to go to that one.
They're boys, if you can afford it, the sporting and extra curricular activities in independent schools are hugely better.
I think a DS2 would resent the opportunities DS1 will get at a independent school.
Academic achievement isn't everything.

So far my dss have always been in different schools, both independent, but DS1s is far more expensive than DS2s. The boys are fine with it, and I do take the time occasionally to remind them why each school is best for them.. They see a reasonable amount of each other's school, and they are happy that they are in the right one.

I think my query to you, is why has this question arisen now? You presumably paid the registration fee, as well as preparing DS to the entrance exams. Were you expecting him to fail? Or is it more the case that a couple of months ago you would have spent time convincing yourself that school 2 was an adequate backup if he and you didn't get your first choice? I don't think that your concerns are wrong necessarily, I guess that I'm just trying to explore what is it that has changed your mind. It seems reasonably unusual for someone to be told quite so much information about how their DS has scored in the entrance exams. If you had just been told that he had passed, but not where he had passed, would you feel differently?

We have similar dilemma with 2 independents. Although in theory dd could outperform ds and is more allrounded, he is the one with the scholarship. She does n't have a strong preference but there is a certain attraction to having them at the same place with same opportuniites.

Good Qs LM...!

Yes, to be honest, we were gearing ourselves up for the fact he might not get in.
His current school said he was borderline.

When he was offered a place, I asked the admissions sec (who know from when DS1 applied) if she could tell me where ds2 had come in the entrance exam. This is quite common - one of my friends' daughter just scraped in by a single mark, and the school said they were offering a place but actually thought she might struggle. In the event, my friend sent her daughter to a neighbouring all girls school instead which has really worked brilliantly for her confidence and development. (They had a similar situation - v. academic older sibling at school).

It all comes down to how we think DS2 will handle the fast pace at school 1. He is very competitive, but when he can't do things as quickly/well as his -brother-- other people he tends to give up/ pretend he doesn't care/ avoid getting into comparative situations. We are constantly trying to buoy up his self-esteem.

School 2 really is a great school too, and unusual in that it is almost like an independent in that it has huge grounds, masses of extra curricular etc.
So we had certainly talked a lot to DS2 about all school 2 had to offer, as it genuinely seemed a good option.

I'm not sure the reasons DS2 would give for wanting to go to school 1 (brother there, friends going, hot chocolate available at break... ) can be taken as the ultimate deciding factors - although they are clearly important to consider (except the hot choc!)

Having said all that, I can see that it would be AWFUL to now say to DS2, that although he's passed the exam, he CAN'T go to school 1 !
And it may be that, given his age, that in another couple of years he will have 'caught up' and we'll wonder what all the fuss was about!

I suppose the worst case scenario is that if school 1 didn't work out then we could move somewhere else at 13+ ?

But what is the bottom 20%? My son is in a class at the moment where they are ranked academically and between each boy there was 1/2 a mark between them. The bottom 20% may still only have been 5 points lower in the tests.

We would have had a similar dilemna to yours (although our DS1 is just averagely bright - not scholarship material, but comfortable), but our DS2 didn't pass the entrance exam to "school 1". Your anguish makes me realize even more that this has been a blessing in disguise for us because I know in my heart that he would have scraped along at the bottom of the more academic school had he got in, and would have more chance to shine at a less academic school. We did have the option of a state school walking distance which is doing pretty well, but we've gone for a private school that's further away than his brother's and will require a train journey (but lots of boys do the same journey). Part of our reasoning was definitely the fact that DS2 would one day realize the difference (in terms of fees as well as other factors) between his and his brothers' educations.

I think it's really important to take into account the intake of schools when you compare them - the school DS2 will go to does not get as good results as DS1's school, but the intake is nothing like as selective. Above all, I know boys similar to my DS2 who are extremely happy there and doing very well, and my instinct tells me it's the right thing. Only time will tell whether i'm right!

LM we also asked for feedback for reassurance as to where she would fit academically in the cohort and they were very helpful.

Watching with interest as my 2 sound identical to yours!
However ds1 can only go to his private school due to the 80% bursery so unless ds2 also gets into this school, i'm afraid it'll be the local comp for him, as we couldn't afford the fees for a different private school.

Your ds2 has passed the exams, the school think he'll succeed there, I would suggest starting him at his brothers school, and seeing how it goes.

Agree with Colleger, esp on the basis of a single exam. Ds2 may been in the bottom 20%, but that doesn't mean that that is where he will be across the board

If he wants to go to school 1, then it really has to be school 1. You can turn the not trying hard enough thing to your advantage by explaining he can go but he's going to have to push himself a bit harder.

How does your older one think his brother would cope at his school? As him when your gouged one isn't around so he can be honest.

seeker - is 'gouged' one an autocorrect by any chance??

I have already asked DS1 this (privately) and he said, "I think he'd be fine Mum, there are much thicker kids than DS2 there...."

But seriously, that is an important insight.

Am definitely thinking we will go for school 1......

I am unconvinced about the "resentment" factor I have two DS's one in a very good state, one in very selective indie the one in state would certainly not want to be in the other ones school for all the tea in China! I also understand where your coming from re: your DS2 being in the bottom 20%. Obviously someone has to be there but I suspect its a hard place to be particularly if the school is academic and very competitive and many of course are. Something else to consider; do they have a policy on GCSE results to get into the 6th form? At my DS2 school you have to get 7 A*'s if they have something similar will that worry him? Will that worry you?
Can you speak to parents whose children are in that bottom 20% ask them how their DC's and they themselves feel about it. I imagine going to parent teacher meetings and talking to teachers about how your DC will have to work extra hard to get the required grades etc could be quite stressful. If the less able are under pressure to perform as well as the able then I personally believe and in fact have found that they can become very unhappy and anxious. I personally wouldn't want this for my DS's.

I was more 'academically minded'

Same school, no questions. And keep reminding DS2 grafters will in the long term totally kick the arse of any natural talent that doesn't try/ keep on at it.

My sis and I went to the local comp. Both our younger brothers were in private schools (not scholarships) from about age 8 -> A-level. I don't have any resentment at all to my brothers over this. I have a very minor bit of resentment to my parents over it- but nothing Jeremy-Kyle-worthy. Sis and I have done well so patronising pat on head to brothers for not managing to maximise out their highly expensive (but clearly not up to much) educational opportunities. There is no way to tell if they would be in a better or worse place if they had also gone the comp route. Also no way to tell if my sis and I would be stratospheric rather than just pretty excellent if we'd gone pub school. So who knows- you just don't get to run it all ways and take the best result.

I do remember my mum once getting really cross when an old lady from the village nodded approvingly at the split and told her "You're doing the right thing as it's boys that need the education anyway". She was furious as, of course that wasn't the underlying reason at all but; know that separate treatment will get judged by others and there is the danger that some of that gets taken on by DS2 as his self-view too if he wants to go to school1 and you put him in school2 "for his own good".