Dilemma... 'more average' sibling to follow super-bright brother to same school, or somewhere else, with a chance to 'shine'??

[fluffyhamster]

I'm sure we're not the first to have had this dilemma..

DS2 has been/ will almost certainly be offered places at two schools, and we can't decide.

• School 1 is a local independent with an excellent reputation (Top 100 in the country). DS1 is already at this school. Doing well (is super -bright with top scholarship etc) Excellent facilities - esp. music & drama (which DS2 is into).

We weren't sure that DS2 would get offered a place, but he has. However we know that he was in the bottom 20% of those who passed the entrance exam. I worry that he might struggle a little, will always be towards the bottom, and constantly in DS1's shadow. It also seems to be a school where you need to 'find your own feet/ stand up for yourself'. DS2 is not massively confident, and may find it hard.

• School 2 is a local voluntary aided school with fantastic facilities and above average results. Rapidly getting even better, but not the same academic pressure as school 1.

We are lucky to be in the catchment for this school - parents lie and move to get their kids there . Feels a bit more nuturing. Is smaller. I think DS might feel less stressed and more confident here. But he may not 'stretch' himself enough if he can get away with it (he has a tendency to follow the path of least resistance...) Music & drama isn't as good though.

The other consideration is that DS2 is very young (August birthday) and it feels as if he may still be doing some catching up vs. his peer group.
The change in him over the last year has been massive, and in another year it might seem as if he could have coped better with school 1?

I just can't decide.
School 2 would obviously cost less too, but I couldn't bear it if in later years DS2 accused us of sending him to a 'less good' school to save money!
Any wise words?

All this cream talk is nauseating. Very few truly intelligent and thoughful people would regard themselves as cream.

I can't quite see why you should "bloody well hope so". A state grammar whose pupils achieve this highly do so against a background of far inferior funding, with all the educational ramifications that that can have.

As the HT of one well known super-selective often says: money can't buy you brains.

Send him to school 1. He got in. That's fantastic isn't it?

You haven't had experience of state secondary. Larger class sizes - less feedback etc. Its not just about how clever your son is, state school is a different entity altogether (I'm not saying its worse - just completely different).

I would send him to school 1 because you know the teachers, know the systems, know some parents.

A small add:

the grammar school debate is not relevant and does NOT solve the education problem in the UK, IMO.

This is because it only deals with the top 20% of the intake. We have to forget about the bottom 20% (because they are not teachable in the linear progression system of mainstream), but what about the other 60%? Who are precious, worthwhile and add value to society if taught/trained well?

The solution to me is to adopt the dutch/german 3-tier system of education. And for pupils to move freely between them and prove they can do it.

I absolutely agree with Yellowtip's HT, but there is another factor that counts even more: determination.

Yes, it is the tortoise and the hare tale. You can have all the brains there are, but if you have no work habits no self-discipline and no ability to negotiate with other people, you can be a failure.

Have faith, folks! We are ALL valuable.

Hi OP we have the identical situation. DS2 will go to our equivalent of your "school 1".

Our "school 2" was the local grammar, in the exam for which DS2 got a high mark. We have concluded that our perceptions have been skewed by top-of-his-year prize-winning golden child DS1, resulting in us underestimating DS2. DS2 is markedly less sunny natured and enthusiastic than DS1 and will not win the academic prizes that DS1 does. But he has got his place, he wants to go, and he will go.

He may be compared unfavourably (either by others or by himself). He may raise his game! He will get an excellent education and will never be able to conclude that what I expect will be DS1s better exam grades are a result of us paying for one and not the other. We can provide equality of opportunity, the rest is up to him.

breadandbutterfly I'm trying not to rise to your argument but... I have no idea what independent school you taught at but I know from my DS2 top performing independent boys boarding school that when the best independent schools get it right and I do accept they may not be that many if them in reality and your DC thrives in this environment then I'm sorry to have to tell you this but the state sector just looks like a poor relation in comparison. But as I've pointed out to the OP this environment is certainly not right for all and many will do as well if not better in state ed whether it be grammar or comprehensive.

happygardening you've said often which school your DS2 attends and only a fool would deny it provides a fabulous education (and nice cricket nets too).

The state sector is a poor relation to that sort of school in terms of funding, for sure.

But do you have the experience or expertise to diss the education that the top performing state schools provide? After all, their results are on a par with your own. If you do have first hand knowledge, my apologies. But if you don't, then I wonder how you can substantiate your assertion that they are 'poor relations'?

Yellowtip DS1 is in the counties top performing non selective state!! And in fact beats many of the local indies even those which are selective although obviously not the very selective ones.
I'm unsure of the results of all selective states but DS2 was offered a place at ones of the countries top performing grammars always in the top 15 often top 3-4 and the results still aren't on a par to his indie if you actually break them down. But this is not what I judge schools on I have no doubt that DS2 would have got identical results out of DS1 school non selective comp and its not swimming pools or cricket nets or building dating back 600 yrs and no seeker its not smugness or money or the fact that the staff speak the same English I speak not some jargon that I don't understand (although this does help) its something else that is not only not available in the state sector and is not available in may indies either.

Its suits me and I'm lucky (because at the end of the day that is all it is) and can and am prepared to pay for it but I accept it doesn't suit all.
But breadandbuttefly and Yellowtip you are deluding yourself if you think that the state can ever offer what these handful of top indie schools are offering. I agree its not fair on all the rest and I'm sure its galling to those who can't afford to send their children but even if I didn't send my DS2 it would make any difference to yours I'm afraid. If I'd sent my DS2 to the grammar school where he was offered a place it would make any difference to any of the other children there in fact all it would have done is deprive a child from a family who don't have the money for private ed. a place.

How do you know that I couldn't send my children to that school if I wished?! Perhaps I could, perhaps if I couldn't I could borrow, perhaps I couldn't do either. Whatever, I personally grew up in a London day school environment and prefer my children at home :)

I'm afraid that you evidently don't have the experience of those schools that you deride but whose education may well be on a par to the top independents'. There aren't that many top schools in either sector, by definition. I can't see how you can directly compare the academic education that the different schools provide and I think that however you dress it up, in fact you are really are comparing on the basis of beauty of buildings and the splendour of the sports fields etc.

If you can provide me with evidence of how these schools (the ones in the tier immediately below SPGS and Westminster) provide a richer academic education than the ones b&b and I are familiar with, I'd be interested to listen. For the meanwhile, it sounds a little hollow.

happygardening - sounds like a good thing you chose indie and as you say, left the grammar place to someone who wants it.

No, I couldn't afford to send my dc private but would absolutely not wish to do so, as it disagrees with my values as much as state ed does with yours. Was discussing politics with an old school friend recently and realised that all my close friends from grammar school happen to be left-wing - very actively so in some cases. Coincidence? I doubt it.

I don't believe in buying privilege or in an attitude that having lots of money makes you a better person in some way - I wouldn't wish my dc to be educated somewhere where attitudes such as Abitwobblynow's were generally accepted.

So no, can assure you it is not remotely 'galling' that I can't afford to send my dc private - galling that I can't live in a bigger house, have more holidays, eat out more often, say, then yes, yes and yes!

But you'd have to pay ME to get me to send my kids private - and I don't think you could pay me enough. I'd hate it. Really.

What the top public schools give you is contacts. Pure and simple. Access to the Old Boy's ( and I use the word advisedly) network.

My husband was at one of these top schools and has never used or even tried to use the old boy net work. This is a myth perpetuated by those who have not sent their children to these schools; he receives an old boy directory but has never and will never contact any for a so called leg up.
He is only in contact with a handful of friends from his school days and none to our knowledge however successful and some are really successful have ever used the old boy net work either.
All have worked hard as do most people been good at their jobs and ultimately in many cases just been lucky.
Yelowtip and BandB perhaps can you provide me with the evidence that your schools provides as rich an education as my DS2 school. I would actually be happy to be proven wrong because I'm not anti state ed. but my gut feeling is that unless your in these top indie schools then I don't think you realise what is actually provided. This is not a pissing match by the way I respect and admire seeker for her principles ( especially as I'm actually a bit of a leftie!) and I too work for the public sector and deplore the ever increasing provision of private alternatives which I don't believe are any better.

As I have no idea what school your ds2 is at i can't answer that question, happygardening.

Tell us what advantages you think he has and I'll tell you whether they are things I care two hoots for.

I suppose it depends what you mean by "rich". My dd goes to a state school- admittedly a grammar- but she goes on trips, has courses in the History of Western Thought and Critical Thinking and things like that. She sings Madrigals, and Jazz, plays Baroque music and Swing, does D of E and community service, had a choice of 4 'MFL and Latin and Greek, plays or has played practically every sport you could name (except Fives or the Wall Game, I suppose. Or Real Tennis)..... Does that sound rich to you?

And you are deluding yourself if you think the OBN is not alive and well and living among the movers and shakers of the country.

Properly intelligent industrious people don't need the OBN. Merit will do.

They do if they want to be Prime Minister, yellowtip.

I suppose I detect in my university aged children a lack of shallowness of thought happygardening. That presumably is the product of a rich education?

A great great uncle of mine was one seeker, I hope it was just because he was bright.

Ooh, hark at you, Yellowtip.

Still curious to find out what our dcs are supposed to be missing that happygardening's ds is not missing.

I assume her dc is not at a boarding school, or I would be inclined to think he was missing his family - and his family him. I know that no amount of 'richness' of education could compensate for missing the richness of family life. So what is it then?

Tres gentil b&b (it was a dodgy East European PMship mind you).

They're missing all the dollied up stuff on the prospectus which is designed to bleed £33K a year from vulnerable parents, no?

We have quite nice cricket nets on our village field, it does the business.

bandb yes the DS is at boarding school and has been since he was in yr 3! I am not going to even stray that debate because we will never agree. My DS as a child at one of the countries too full boarding schools has a myriad of sporting opportunities to choose from but this is of course fantastic but as he will tell you he can only do one a day and there are 2-3 he would really like to do but which clash with others. There are also a 30 - 40 extra curricular clubs as well but boarders lead busy lives and again can't and although have time every day to go participate in activities you can't go to all of them because it's not

Could you explain "rich" education? I agree that the boarding debate is one we shouldn't stray into- except I suppose when comparing the quality of education we would somehow have to factor in the input from parents for day pupils outside school hours with that of the staff at a boarding school?

sorry pressed wrong button and posted before I proof read posting and before I'd finished it. Now changed computers so hopefully wont do it again. Let me start again bandb yes the DS is at boarding school and has been since he was in yr 3! I am not going to even start that debate because we will never agree. My DS as a child at one of the countries too full boarding schools has a myriad of sporting opportunities 20+ to choose from this is of course fantastic but as he will tell you he can only do one a day and there are 2-3 he would really like to do but which clash with others. There are also a 20+ extra curricular clubs as well but boarders lead busy lives and although have time every day to go participate in activities you can't go to all of them because just not possible. For me this is not what we pay for obviously outstanding teaching but i agree that can be found in many schools smaller classes freedom from government intervention and its ever changing whims driven by one eye on the next election 600 yr old builds acres of playing field and all the things one associates with this type of ed are definitely motivating me. But its the strong emphasis on cultural activities that too me are important just last 1/2 term three plays loads of concerts art exhibitions lectures by experts in their particular field. I've just looked at the websites of two grammars school who are in the top 10 in the UK and neither have the range and quality of cultural activities. At my DS school these cultural activities are woven into day to day structure of the school and are as important in the same way lessons are. May be I'm being swayed by the fact thats it boarding you ultimately have the time to offer so much more. Maybe its just the whole boarding experience that is influencing my views because I do struggle to put into words what makes it different and I believe ultimately better but as I've said the school and of corse boarding is not for everyone .

seeker I've only quickly scanned my previous comments but I'm not sure I used the word "rich."
With regard to the old boy net work I was talking to my DH about it. He feels its not the old boy network your talking about its money. He works with some of the wealthiest people in the world and they mix with other billionaires and that is how they get positions of power and influence. You only have to look at the likes of Mandelson and how he behaved to see that it not the old boy network that gives you a leg up it cosying up to those with money.

@yellow and of course the per head funding of some state grammars is much higher than that of other state grammars. :(

@happy, @yellow - it's not the education that is better at the posh schools when compared to the top top state selective schools. It's the extra layer of privilege, the branding, and the networking, which buys advantage. You can circumvent that a little by going to Oxbridge from a state school, but not entirely. Certainly in that bit (and at the level) of the city in which I work, I am still, in this day and age, unusual not only for being a woman but also for being a state school product. But the city isn't everything and I am doing all I can to ensure my kids never follow my lucrative but ultimately depressing career path.

I actually don't think things have changed much over the years, either. I know what school Yellow went to, I think. I think she knows what school I went to. In the 80s the very top performers at her school didn't do any better than the top performers at My school (which was a grammar till the borough went comp) and the overall results profile was very similar. After my school went comp (I was in the first comp year) the results declined a bit (but not in my year when they obviously made a big effort to prove nothing would change). Sad but true.