Ballot to abolish grammar schools

[zeolite]

With all the talk on catchments, here is the second ever ballot to abolish grammar schools (the first was in 2000, on Ripon Grammar, which failed):

www.reading107fm.com/newscentre/local-news/petition-launched-to-scrap-two-reading-grammar-schools-247

What do MNetters think?

[takes cover now]

Yes, he was lucky and I am very appreciative of that. I had a very strong case at appeal to get him in when he didn't get a place automatically. And I'm thankful that ds2 who is not as academic has a great chance of getting a place at the local outstanding comp. I'm more than happy with the choices we have available to us and the choices we made. I've heard lots of execllent reports about Reading from current parents and current boys, including ones about how bullying is dealt with. I'd much rather take my chances there with regards to bullying than I would the comp, which recently had police camped outside it for days because of things being stolen, despit their outstanding OFSTED.

But I think the answer to providing all children with the best type of education for them as individuals is by providing more GS places, and improving comps, which imo should be the only alternative to GS.

aliportico - good post.

"seeker it is very presumptuous of you to come to the conclusion that my ds is in a middle class bubble just because he is due to start at GS."

Bubblecoral - look me in the eye, place your hand on your heart and tell me he's not!

Ok, you tell me your idea of middle class, which imo covers a huge spectrum of people, and I'll tell you how we live.

At least one parent educated past statutory school leaving age and in a professional/semi professional job, books in the house, meals round the table, occasional broadsheet newspaper in the house. Probably but not necessarily not on FSM.

Ok, his Dad and I are both educated to diploma level, both in semi professional jobs (at a push!) books in the house, but never any type of newspaper in the house, that's what internet is for! Not on FSM, but certainly not miles away from the threshold!

Personally, I'd describe is as lower middle class, but why is it that you think my ds needs to spend as much time as a child spends in school surrounded by people with less than us? Why? I really don't see why he would be so much better off. He knows that you have to work for money, he certainly can't have the luxuries some of his state school class mates can have.

Isn't it just as important that he spends time with people whose aspirations and achievements are higher than average as well?

My DDs are middle class and I'm very pleased about that!

I come from a working class background - went to grammar school - received an excellent education, and met DH who is upper-middle class.

He is a professional who also benefitted from a grammar school education and now our DDs are both going to grammar schools.

Life is grand!

I have never met anyone who didn't want their DC to do better/have a better life than they did. An excellent education is a very good way of achieving that goal, whatever 'class' you are - beit lower or upper.

The political Left hate grammar schools because they entrench privilege.
The Right love them because they entrench privilege...

When I see parents marching in the streets demanding the retention of Secondary Moderns, I'll believe in the concept of grammars.

I might be swayed if 11+ exams took into account private schooling and private tutoring, but the will isn't there.

FWIW I'm ex girls grammar. Yes, I got a good and exclusive education (with only one Prep girl in my class!). The catchment was 11 miles all around. My DB, on the other hand, went to a SM, His education was complete rubbish. So the top 15% of us got a 1st class education, the remaining 85%......

The same school is now 80% private prep with a catchment of 'a reasonable travelling distance'. Girls travel 50 miles each way to go there. The city bristles with preps whose sales pitch is 11+ success.

I'm not sure the bulk of the tax and NI payers of the local area should be funding an system that pretty much excludes their own DCs.

It would be interesting if the Grammars went back to their roots, and provided a selective education only for the children of low income families

I'm not sure the bulk of the tax and NI payers of the local area should be funding an system that pretty much excludes their own DCs.

That's not what happens though.

I would like to see them positively discriminate in favour of low income families. People bring out the old platitude of ' they give the underprivileged DC a way up'-knowing they would employ a tutor to get the place for their own DC.
I think they should have a sliding scale and anyone not using tutors or doing hours of practise papers would get points in their favour before they start. (unfortunately impossible to implement)
I would only like a system with a level playing field with a test that was utterly impossible to prepare for and they all got it cold. Those who would get a place would be those who could manage to work it out for themselves. Since it i impossible I would rather have comprehensives where they can find their own level and go up or down accordingly.

"I'm not sure the bulk of the tax and NI payers of the local area should be funding an system that pretty much excludes their own DCs.

That's not what happens though."

yes it is!

Yes, exotic, I would find grammar schooling more palatable if there was a way to ensure only those with the best potential got in, not those with the wealthiest or pushiest parents.

But even then, I would only support the notion if the remaining 80 odd % of DCs also were afforded suitable education, like technical schools or sports colleges. MY DB (who failed his 11+ by such a narrow margin, my parents were called into the primary to discuss whether he should go to the grammar anyway...found himself in classes, unstreamed, with DCs who really would have been better off in Special Education (this was 1972). There would also need to be a lot of fluid movement between the schools: I was at the grammar with girls who managed 4 'O' levels- well, they evidently weren't grammar school material, were they? Yet I also went to my professional training college with girls from other SMs whose O level results were not unlike mine, so not all SMs failed their DCs (though it could be argued that such girls should have been at a GS anyway!)

However, a test that can dictate a DC's entire future at 11 cannot be either fair or for the common good, really, can it?

FWIW, I would like my DCs to go to a grammar BUT purely because, being 'selective', they can (and do) effectively kick DCs out who aren't 'getting with the program'. The schools do not have to tolerate yob behaviour (and of course, the mere fact the DCs have been selected on intelligence means that, sooner or later, most if not all recognise the need to shut up and listen!)

Maybe I want my DCs to go to a school that selects for 'good and appropriate classroom behaviour'! Which is why I bought my way into the catchment of a very middle class comprehensive...

I think you are me erebus!!!
I agreewith your entire post.

I never know why only academic DCs of the underpriviledged deserve a way up and good schooling-it appears the rest should know their place! Why don't they all deserve good schooling and surely those who are way below average deserve the very best?

I failed the 11+ by 2 places and had I lived a mile away, as the crow flies (on the other side of the river the marks would have got me a place). How sensible is that?! To base my future education on a test at 11yrs old.

When I eventually got a place in the grammar school 6th form I found that many had left-that was the real tragedy-they had taken a place and left at 16yrs. Someone else could have had the place. If there are grammar schools I think there should be a review at the end of the year and DCs swap schools-those who have been misplaced change.

I also bought myself into the catchment area of a good comprehensive-not fair at all-but I want, the same as everyone, the best for my DCs.

Looks like we all agree on something then! I completely agree with the last two posts.

We will all do our best to get our dc the best education we possibly can, while acknowledging the system is flawed. But we have to go with what we've got.

I wouldn't be able to buy my way into a catchment for a better comp, so as I've said, so far I've been lucky to have a good comp and a GS nearby. And as GS is the best chance ds has, I don't want to see it go.

We would be failing our DCs if we didn't try and get them the best-however I realise that I am completely hypocritical-I am against grammar schools and yet buy my way into a good comprehensive so realistically I have to say that supporting grammar schools is no worse.
What we need is a complete overhaul of the education system.

(I think that what it needs is someone to imagine they come back in a new life and they design an education system not knowing which strata of society or which IQ they will be given!)

bubblecoral - That is what the peole who are voting for a change of admisson criterea for Reading and Kendrick are doing trying to get the best possible education for their children.

I wish we had a grammar locally. There are 2 comprehensives, both of which are so bad people move out of the area to avoid them (having moved into the area for infant and junior schools - the irony!!!)

Some way away is the only state selective: Tiffin Girls and there are 10 girls chasing every place, no catchment area, so I see why people think it's easier to move house than gamble on getting in there...

DH has lived in this area all his life and went to one of these local comps and was once offered a job ont he basis that he had been through that school and could actually reand and write, the interviewer said that showed real strength of character. If DH had been to a grammar he would have gone to university, as it was he was lucky to scape 1 O level and 4 GCSEs.

Pertinent to Ripon grammar...I was in the school system when Harrogate grammar went comprehensive and it became a shadow of its former self with the other schools overtaking it quickly as preferred schools.

bubblecoral - That is what the peole who are voting for a change of admisson criterea for Reading and Kendrick are doing trying to get the best possible education for their children.

I don't doubt that, but they are going about it in a very misguided way that stands almost no chance of them getting that.

All they have a chance of doing is spoiling other childrens chances of getting the best education. Their efforts would be much better spent trying to improve the other schools insted of trying to drag the good schools down.

No Offence bubblecoral but I do not care about other peoples children I care about my own!!! They currently have no senior school to attend!!!!

Your son has a place now and no catchment area changes that are made will change that so I do not see why it is a concern for you, or are you worried that your hard worked plans to tutor him into this grammer school will be ruined if he has to mix with normal children who's parents can't afford to cheat there way in!

That's a bit harsh and uncalled for Katedan!

My child is normal thankyou very much, and apart from buying 2 practice papers for each test, we didn't pay to cheat our way in!

Catchment area changes wouldn't bother me in the slightest, we live as close as anyone could, whilst still being in WBC. It takes us less than 10 minutes to drive to the gate of Reading School.

And as has been pointed out already, (which was news to me) Reading has a surplus of secondary places!

As has also been pointed out, the proposed ballot is not about catchment changes! It is about removing selection. Honestly, how many times does that need to be said?

Katedan - "cheat their way in"??? I know school is an emotive subject, but that's just rude. I'm not even going to wonder how on earth you think anyone could cheat their way in anyway.

I'm ex-Grammar, dd now at one, she and her 2 best friends (both council tenants) all have free school meals. I am still opposed to them, she's been split from her primary school friends, it's elitist, prvate crammers make big bucks out of 11+ tuition, etc etc. Dd went because of pastoral care and other reasons. It's a nice school but I wish it wasn't selective. As already said, no-one campaigns for secondary moderns, which is what they are once the grammars cream off the academic kids from the 'comprehensives'

Reading's MP reported that there are 15% secondary vacancies in Reading. So it's obvious that the poster who said her DCs have no senior school to attend is as believable as her/his also saying there are feeder schools from London, Beaconsfield and Kuwait! Quite ridiculous. I'm sure everyone will make up their own minds about where this is coming from.

You can't cheat and don't have to practise or coach your way into grammar school. My DCs had no tutoring and one of them even turned down a place. I didn't go to a grammar; my school in the 70s (in common with many others) produced few A levels or ones of not especially high quality (but a fantastic time was had there, so no complaints!), a year at FE college easily produced 3 As (in the days when medical school offers were BCC), so chill out and try to avoid the ridiculous porkies, life is waiting there for the taking if you're up for it.

We can only hope Reading gets what its residents deserve. Does anyone know when the ballot will be done?

I shall forevermore be tempted to say 'London, Beaconsfield and Kuwait' whenever I think of Reading. :)