Page 3 | Ballot to abolish grammar schools

zeolite · 2011-05-24T09:58:18+00:00

With all the talk on catchments, here is the second ever ballot to abolish grammar schools (the first was in 2000, on Ripon Grammar, which failed): http://www.reading107fm.com/newscentre/local-news/petition-launched-to-scrap-two-reading-grammar-schools-247 What do MNetters think? [takes cover now]

bubblecoral · 27/05/2011 21:03

Reading dc's mostly that live on the border, but also elsewhere can and do go to Wokingham schools. That really isn't a valid complaint.

I have one friend whose dd gets a school bus provided for her trip from Tilehurst to Piggott in Wargrave.

My dc doesn't have access to a school bus to get to Reading!

exoticfruits · 27/05/2011 22:16

They can only get in if there is space bubblecoral-they won't just walk into a space they want!

bubblecoral · 27/05/2011 22:27

Yes, and space is created when some Wokingham children go to Reading schools.

Children going into eachothers boroughs happens regularly every year in these two areas. I realise there needs to be more secondary places in Reading, but that is not because Wokingham children are taking over Reading's grammar schools.

So why is their selective status being targeted because of a completely unrelated problem?

carantala · 28/05/2011 00:13

RAB Butler's Education Act 1944 introduced a three-tier system of education. IMO, it was an excellent idea and should be implemented now but successive governments ruined it. Wholeheartedly approve of grammar schools for extremely bright children but don't think that the others should just be lumped in together in comprehensive schools. There were supposed to be technical schools, too, for youngsters who had practical skills and would be led into all sorts of apprenticeships. Unfortunately, manufacturing has largely disappeared in the UK

carantala · 28/05/2011 00:21

Should have added that RAB Butler had no intention of meddling with public school education; therefore there were four different types of secondary education!

katedan · 28/05/2011 08:34

bubblecoral - I am sorry you think I have a bad attitude but this is on the back of the last 12 months of trying to save keeping my children in their local school catchment which thanks to RBC and WBC we have lost. Since 1st May Reading children are not able to attend Wokingham schools (except one failing one and that is also up for Debate!) Yet wokingham children can still atend these two Reading schools. Once Reading boys is a acadamy it will choose it's own admisson criterea and it will not change from the current situation as it is so successful but I am afraid that Reading borough council do need to get their education department in order.

exoticfruits · 28/05/2011 08:42

Reading school and Kendrick are rather out of the 'choice'though since the majority of DCs can't get a place even if they want one. I think that if you are going to have grammar schools it is much better to get your top 2% from a large area. (not sure what the figure is) Why have less clever DCs just because they live in Reading?

YummyHoney · 28/05/2011 08:51

I agree with bubblecoral. Why should the Grammar school DC suffer because your DC can't go to the school of your choice?

I wholeheartedly agree with you that Reading DC should be able to attend the schools, but I too think it's unacceptable to penalise one group of DC to get what you want. (Especially when we need more, not less grammars).

tallulah · 28/05/2011 08:57

We lived in a grammar area. 2 of ours went to grammar, one private, and one to secondary modern. In a grammar area it doesn't matter where you live, you have the same chance of getting into the grammar if you are 3 miles away as if you are next door.

We are now in a non-grammar area. DD is only 4 but I'm already worried about what will happen at secondary level. Here you only stand a chance of getting into the nearest school, which in our case is a sink school. We couldn't afford a house in the catchment of the good schools. How is that fair? (but of course because we both work FT we won't get priority for being "poor" either)

seeker · 28/05/2011 09:05

"I agree with bubblecoral. Why should the Grammar school DC suffer because your DC can't go to the school of your choice?
"

Because they woldn't suffer if there were only proper comprehensive schools.

The grammar school system is divisive and inherently unfair. Why anyone supports it is beyond me.

exoticfruits · 28/05/2011 09:22

There seems to be this weird idea that if there are no grammar schools and they all go to comprehensives the DCs immediately lose all work ethic!
The comprehensives in the Wokingham area are good because only a very few -very top academic-DCs are 'creamed off' and even then not all the very top do the exam because the comprehensives are good.

RustyBear · 28/05/2011 09:37

The problem is that for years there have not been enough secondary places in Reading, so Reading children have been going to Maiden Erlegh, Bulmershe and Ryeish Green - far more than Wokingham children going to Reading/Kendrick.

Of course, of the three, it was Maiden Earlegh that the parents wanted to get their children into, as it had the best results, so lots of people bought houses close to the school, but actually in Reading Borough, not Wokingham - areas where children traditionally got into ME. Meanwhile, children living in Earley were unable to get in to what was actually their closest school, and the perception of their parents was that they were being pushed out of a school that their council tax paid for, by children whose parents paid tax to another borough that wasn't making adequate provision for their secondary pupils.

However, now that Ryeish Green is closed, it's Wokingham that is also in danger of not having enough secondary places, or at least not in the right place, with St Crispins, the Emmbrook and the Holt all being so close together and, unless and until they move the Emmbrook, no secondary at all in the south/east area.

So now Wokingham BC have reorganised the catchment areas and introduced a system which is too complex to explain here, but which effectively means that most of the people who bought expensive houses hoping to get their children into Maiden Erlegh will now find they can't get in. Wokingham BC have said that their intention is not to exclude children from Reading, but that statement is generally taken with a whole bushel of salt...

It seems as if the campaign to change the Reading School/Kendrick School admissions criteria is an attempt to make these two schools into a Maiden Erlegh substitute.

A further twist is that Maiden Erlegh is now an academy and so could presumably set its own admissions criteria, though so far all they have said is that there will be 'continuity of approach' and they will 'continue to work closely' with other schools in the area and with Wokingham BC.

Watch this space.

(Incidentally, I agree with those who say that Reading School is not full of children from private primaries, at least not when DS was there - the majority of his year were certainly from state schools. But he left in 2006, so things might have changed since then)

bubblecoral · 28/05/2011 10:29

Because they woldn't suffer if there were only proper comprehensive schools.

But they would. Because for some (not all) of the grammar school chilldren, a comp, no matter how good, would be completely unsuitable for them. DS1 is one of those children that simply wouldn't cope with the sheer size of the local, outstanding comp. That doesn't mean that the comp couldn't provide for him academically, I believe they could, but in an environment that would be so difficult for him to cope with, the academic education they can offer means nothing. He would be too stressed with everything else to be able to focus properly on school work. Therefore he, and his education would suffer.

bubblecoral · 28/05/2011 10:35

The grammar school system is divisive and inherently unfair

What's unfair about dc being taught in the way that suits them best? What's so wrong about separating them so that they all get what they need?

Children are not all the same. I don't see the point in pretending that they are just so that parents don't feel aggreived that their child is not as academic as another child.

seeker · 28/05/2011 10:56

bullecooral - you talk about your ds. You say he wouldn;t be able to cope with the size of a comprehensive school. well, this could apply to lots of children, not just the academically able. What happens to all the others?

Oh, and in Kent, the grammar schools are as big, if not bigger than the High schools.

I have no problem with children being taught in ability groups. That'w what comprehensive schools do. What I do have a problem with is an irrecovabe decision being made about what sort of education suits a particular child based on 3 50 minute tests at the age of 10.5.

seeker · 28/05/2011 11:00

If you tell 23% of 10 year olds in an area that they are better than the other 77% there is bound to be an impact on the relationships in the town.

And you can tell the kids til you're blue in the face that it's not about passing and failing, then know that it is.

Grammar schools for the few means secondary moderns for the many. And schools need all abilities. Grammar school kids need a reality check. High school kids need to know that it is possible to achieve academically as well as in other ways. Putting them in different bubbles won;t help this happen.

bubblecoral · 28/05/2011 11:27

Fair point about lots of children not being able to cope in a big school. My ds has aspergers which is why we felt it would be especially difficult for him and why we fought so hard to get him into GS.

I also see your point about telling children that some are 'better' than others. It's a shame that it's seen like that, because it really isn't like that. Some are simply more academic than others and they should all have what suits them as individuals. More academic should not, and imo does not, equal better.

I can understand why you have a problem with the system if you live in Kent, I don't know it particularly well, but I have friends there that have a big problem with it and I see why.

In a neighbouring borough to us, selection for GS partly depends on head teacher reccomendations, and this seems to work well, as long as the teachers don't have predudices. Children get a place at GS if they score high enough, simple as that, they aren't competeing for the very top 100 scores.

I disagree that all schools need all abilities. Why? As long as each child is given what they need? Experience of life and diversity is the reponsibility of parents and the family, not the school. And I don't see why GS dc need a 'reality check'. For what exactly?

seeker · 28/05/2011 11:33

Grammar school kids need a reality check in the same way that )perhaps to a lesser extent) pricate school kids dp. It is really importnat that they realize thart there is life outside the safe middle class bubble that is school.

seeker · 28/05/2011 11:39

Actually, i think Kent has the least worst form of 11 plus selection - you do the exam, and if you pass you get a place at the nearest grammar school that has places. So it's pass first, then proximity.

exoticfruits · 28/05/2011 12:32

What's unfair about dc being taught in the way that suits them best? What's so wrong about separating them so that they all get what they need?

I must be fairly thick-but why can't a comprehensive separate them and cater for their needs? Is it really so upsetting to meet a DC of a lower ability in a lunch queue or in the football team?

I find it rather laughable that a DC can't cope in a comprehensive, but can cope in a grammar due to size. There are some huge grammar schools and some small comprehensives.

exoticfruits · 28/05/2011 12:33

Lotsof Wokingham DCs are now going to Yately comprehensive, which is in Hampshire.

aliportico · 28/05/2011 13:34

"When you read the list of schools that are feeder schools it is a joke, schools (mainly private) in London, Beconsfield etc. There is even a feeder school in the vote from Kuwait!"

I just have to comment on this ridiculous statement! Clearly someone has googled and just taken the top hit (although I didn't find any Kuwaiti schools ;-) ) - the list sent out by Reading does have locations on as well, so it can be immediately seen that actually there aren't any London or Beaconsfield feeder schools.

For my own interest, I just went through all 33 schools on the feeder list, to see what/where they were. 8 are independent schools. Of the 25 state schools, 6 are Reading, 15 Wokingham, and then Oxfordshire, Hants, West Berks and Bracknell Forest have 1 each.

I definitely have some sympathy with the idea of Kendrick and Reading taking from a smaller area, BUT THIS IS NOT WHAT THIS BALLOT IS ABOUT. Voting yes to change when you actually want a different change would be a mistake, I feel!

And re Reading not having enough places for its own children because Wokingham steal them all:

Rob Wilson (East Reading MP) asked about this last December, and there's a written answer from Nick Gibb in Hansard about it. You can read all of it (not very long) at www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm101221/text/101221w0005.htm#1012222001843 but the main point is:

"As at May 2010, there were 1,596 surplus primary places (14% of total capacity) in Reading; at secondary level there were 977 surplus places (15% of total capacity)."

Doesn't sound like a crisis to me.

Out of Reading LA's 7 schools, 3 are Outstanding, 2 are Good, 2 are Satisfactory (and for both of those there are reasons why parents might prefer them over the other 5). Seems like a reasonable choice.

bubblecoral · 28/05/2011 13:48

ExoticFruits, I've already answered why my ds wouldn't cope in the comp and would fare much better in the one GS available to us. It has nothing to do with meeting someone less academic in a luch queue.

I can only speak for our situation and my own ds.

We had a choice between GS and comp, the comp is almost exactly double the size of the GS, and it does not offer the high level of pastoral care that my ds needs.

seeker it is very presumptuous of you to come to the conclusion that my ds is in a middle class bubble just because he is due to start at GS. Or any other child that goes to a GS. We live in a 'nice' area, but not that nice. We still have to work. We are not what I would consider to be high or even middle middle class. But we don't live on a council estate with high unemployment either. Why does my child need to be exposed to anything other than he is already exposed to? Both parents have to work in this family, we go without holidays and other luxuries. I really don't see why my ds has to be surronded by people with even less that us for him to get a good education. And if he did need anything else in his life to see that there is life outside our bubble, it would be our responsibility to provide him with that balance, not the school's.

exoticfruits · 28/05/2011 13:53

He was lucky that you had a small school and he got a place-most people don't have the choice. I also think it fairly laughable that grammar schools are thought so nurturing. I know an 11yr old who had his nose broken on the school bus home from Reading Grammar (just as he got off actually but they all got off the same bus and he was at the grammar and so were the boys who beat him up).

usualsuspect · 28/05/2011 13:56

I live in a comprehensive area ..there doesn't seem to be any angst about choosing schools here