Ballot to abolish grammar schools

[zeolite]

With all the talk on catchments, here is the second ever ballot to abolish grammar schools (the first was in 2000, on Ripon Grammar, which failed):

www.reading107fm.com/newscentre/local-news/petition-launched-to-scrap-two-reading-grammar-schools-247

What do MNetters think?

[takes cover now]

We took part in the Ripon ballot.it was flawed in that only parents of children at primary school got to vote.The vast majority of parents want their DC to have a chance at a grammar school education so the ballot could only ever go one way.
A better way would have been to ballot the existing secondary school parents includeing those who were at the (then) god-awful secondary modern

That's the way the Reading ballot is fairydoll, but I disagree that that is a flaw.
If every parent with a child in secondary school were to vote, you would end up with all the grammar school parents voting for it to stay, and the many more disgruntled parents from the comps (as they are in Reading) whose children didn't pass or who didn't think it was worth entering, voting against.

How is that fair?

Also people with houses to sell would vote yes!

I was only ever asked to sign a petition to keep the grammar schools. I only got as far as 'No I won't' and the man said 'thank you' and shot off quickly-I was most disappointed! (I think he could tell I was a lost cause!)

Totally agree with exoticfruits about technical education. It was supposed to be an integral part of the system that included grammar schools, but never was. In the meantime, while we all wring our hands about class consciousness and who gets to go to Oxford, the Chinese and Germans leave our technological and manufacturing sectors standing in the dust. And when the banking bubble bursts, we discover we don't actually have any real jobs for people to do :(

A friend of mine that grew up around here was from a family of four. Of those, two went to grammar school and two to sec mods. Of the two that went to grammar, my freind has a decent professional job and the other has left employment altogether and become a full-time mum. Of the two that went to sec mods, one is now a headteacher and the other is a (literally) billionaire business tycoon in south east Asia - having gone out there at the height of the IT boom, made some very astute business decisions grounded in a firm sense of reality and worked with incredible drive to see them to fruition.

Where do British people get this odd idea that academic education is the be all and end all, and defines success or failure in a general sense?

Oh, and "they may be dumb but they're not stupid" was a JOKE. An ironic comment, if you will, on the different and contradictory types of intelligence and the uselessness of generalising about them. So lighten up FFS.

Another fact is that all secondary schools in Wokingham are Comprehensive, not SMs.

"ruin 1600+ current pupils needs and the future of 100s of bright children that could have been"
-is rather offensive, tbh. The implication that anything 'less' than a GS spells dire failure.

Erebus,

I was stating what the outcome of these 10 peoples actions are. There was nothing implied. I stand by what I have said.

As I previously stated...
Across the two schools, they have put 1600+ childrens lives into turmoil. These children now fear that their school, due to this petition, may no longer be the safe, secure educational haven they know and trust and now also have the very real fear that it may all be taken away form them.
Yet why is removing specialised learning to the small percentage of able students acceptable?
* 10 people are going to bring down two outstanding academies, ruin 1600+ current pupils needs and the future of 100s of bright children that could have been.

These children are afraid. At this very moment in time, and will be for the duration of the long drawn out process that these 10 people have initiated.
They do receive specialised learning at Grammar Schools. e.g. The pace of the lessons..
Their needs will fail to be met if this grammar School loses it's selective status and those of future children that could of also had thier specialised needs met by this school.

If you wish to dismiss the facts and mis-interpret what I have written, so that you can justify your own point of view to yourself, that is your choice.
Do not then try to justify your mis-interpretation by accusing me of something I have not implied in what I have written.

Quite frankly what I find frightening is a parent who espouses that all children matter and then goes on to summarily dismiss the very real fears and needs of over 1600+ children.

As to your comment about you out yourself. I really do not have any idea what you mean. Unfortunately I was not educated in a Grammar school, as you say you were.

Where do British people get this odd idea that academic education is the be all and end all, and defines success or failure in a general sense?

Until they get rid of it you are going to have a situation where people want their DC at a grammar school, even though their DC isn't academic.

Somehow you are a 'good' parent if your DC goes to Bristol university to study English, an excellent parent if they go to Oxford and become a lawyer but have failed if they don't go to university and become a plumber! Weird!

My DS1 was an average pupil at primary (level 4 SATS).But I bought him a set of practice VR and NVR papers which he could easily do, although he did do a few practces to build up speed.he passed 11+ but for the first couple of years was near the bottom for every subject .But now in GCSE year he is near the top for every subject and is expecting A* in most
I do not know this is because he has been in a GS environment that has brought him along so well, or whether the 11+ tests does what it says on the tin and can identify potential rather than attainment.
But I do think he would have crashed and burned if he hadn't have been pushed hard in a GS environment.

They come on at different times. I think my DS would have been border line failure at 11, but he came on in leaps and bounds in yr7, and there is no doubt he would have been a pass at 12yrs. Luckily he didn't have to do it.

My second DS scored the highest grades in the county at KS2, went to the good comp and is now expecting A/A* in his GCSEs.
He has never needed "specialised" learning, he has never feared to "crash and burn", and he has never had a fear that his "safe, secure educational haven" might be removed.

He has:

• enjoyed his lessons whether in a streamed or non-streamed setting
• been effectively challenged and encouraged
• learned to value all students, and made some excellent supportive friendships

I find it incredibly insulting to my able DC for other parents with able children to suggest that they need to be a wholly academic environment to achieve their best.

It is not only insulting to the DC, it is insulting to the parent to think that you send your DC to a comprehensive because you have no choice, not that you want the best for your DC and you think that your choice gives the best.

I moved out of a grammar school area because I didn't think it offered the best. I didn't think much to the pastoral care of the boy's grammar at that particular time, apart from anything else.

In Wokingham I don't think that abolishing the Reading grammars would make much difference, as very few go there. In fact,given a ballot in primary school, I bet most parents would vote against as they would rather have the very brightest in the comprehensives. Only a few DCs take the test and, generally only 3or 4 per primary school get a place. Often the brightest prefer to walk to school and don't even bother.

As a matter of interest, how do your score the highest grades in the county at KS2? Surely lots of kids get full marks in theri SATS?

No idea, but the school was in special measures and the head had a meeting with an LEA adviser. They were looking through the school SATs results and noticed a spike. When he looked further he said this was the highest overall individual scores (not grades, eg 5A) in the county and belonged to DS. The Head told us in confidence on the last day of term. I don't usually mention it, but am so fed up of the tone from some of the grammar school parents that I think it's worth mentioning.

Anyway, the point was not about how able my child is, but that able children do not need to be in some exclusive environment in order to achieve their potential, and that to deprive them of a GS education is somehow letting them down because they have particular needs.

'Is it really so upsetting to meet a DC of a lower ability in a lunch queue or in the football team?

A grammar school wouldn't have soccer team.Rugby my dear!

Reading School definitely do have a football team, fairydoll!

They do play rugby too - I still have DS's rugby shirt - it fits me perfectly and is a reversible double-layer that's incredibly warm but light - I wear it for gardening in the winter

I have to say, jgbmum that I can't see why you think it's insulting to your DS for 'other parents with able children to suggest that they need to be a wholly academic environment to achieve their best' - quite the opposite, I would have thought, if your DS can achieve without such an environment and theirs can't....

'A grammar school wouldn't have soccer team.Rugby my dear!'

I'm really shocked at the elevated and elite social status some people are ascribing to grammar schools, most of which are underfunded and pretty shabby - like many state schools of all kinds. When the country is being run by men educated in the most exclusive schools seen round the cabinet table for a couple of decades - schools that are beyond the economic reach of the vast majority of most of us on here - I would have thought all the MNetters with DCS in comps and GS's should be banding together and storming the playing fields of Eton. We are being governed by people who think comps and GS are just different grades of fifth rate education they wouldn't countenance for their own kids.Wake up and smell the Pimms people. There are more important battles to be fought than abolishing a couple of Reading grammar schools.

I didn't realise that if you went to a GS you weren't allowed to mix with dcs who went to the secondary school. I feel let down by my parents that they didn't make sure I was kept in a middle class bubble. I went to a primary school I the middle of a council estate even though we didn't live there.
Obviously my GS was rubbish as it played football not rugby.

Clearly I am perpetuating the bad parenting by sending Ds to a private school that not only doesn't prepare him for the 11+ but I also let him mix with (whispers) state school dcs. Not sure he'll thank me when he's older.

My DSs grammar school don't have a football team.The boys only play Rugby as a winter sport, so definitely true in some GSs!!

Of course you know what they say about football and rugby
Football is a gentleman's game played by ruffians, and rugby is a ruffian's game played by gentlemen.
Westminster for example gave up rugby after trying it in the 1990s.

My own feeling madmummad is that MN gives grammars a bad name. Middle class as a prerequisite and then hundreds spent on tutoring. Rubbish.

Judging by the other live threads, it would be far beneath us to storm the playing fields, undignified. They give themselves a bad name.

Our public schools nowadays are about economics, and not what passed for birth/social class. Other nationalities seem more able to see past their social origins and less hung up about buying or not (yet) being able to buy privilege.

Why bother storming the playing fields when they could be yours in a few short years or generations? Nothing to stop a plumber earning billions and sending their talented DCs anywhere they choose. Except themselves.

"In Wokingham I don't think that abolishing the Reading grammars would make much difference, as very few go there."

Out of the 33 feeder schools that are being balloted, 15 are Wokingham state primaries - the highest proportion in fact. So if making Kendrick and Reading Schools non-selective won't make much difference in Wokingham, it's going to make even less difference in Reading and the other surrounding areas, surely?

"Middle class as a prerequisite and then hundreds spent on tutoring. Rubbish."

I'm afraid the facts speak for themselves. The grammar school intake is largely middle class. And hundreds are spent on tutoring.

Of course it won't make much difference in Reading either. That is why I like the Reading system-take it away and it would hardly be noticed.

Hello Bubblecoral,
I have been reading with astonishment the great Reading School debate which I came accross by accident (well skimming anyway as I'm supposed to be working!) and must applaud your patience in responding calmly and politely to the same points made over and over. Anyway, my DS is not only starting at Reading in September but sounds so similar to your own - I could have written exactly what you said about your reasons for feeling it was the best environment for him. My DS' teacher's comment on the exam results was "Oh thank goodness-it's where he belongs" and she has her own children happily at or bound for St Crispins, which is also quite likely to be where our less studious second child also ends up (which is not a problem!)... and FWIW we eat at a table, have loads of books but very little money (especially after buying DS' uniform!) and didn't cram or hire a tutor!