Is it getting impossible for Scottish kids to get into Scottish uni's

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Please tell me it isn't so. Hearing Strathclyde business school is 5A's in first sitting these days. What are your experiences? Don't know what to advise my child for their choices as the entry requirements seem so high.

Widening access criteria are crazy!

Some unis go on postcode but ignore school so private school kids in the nicest house on a bad street will get in over one living in a tiny flat in a run down street in a good school's catchment.

Not as wide a difference as I thought though I think it varies over different courses. I was mainly looking at computing and I remember it being much wider.

Yes it is: 1 in 3 Scottish applicants get an offer, 1 in 6 rUK & Ireland applicants get an offer, and 1 in 4 overseas (2022 data).

Actual acceptances end up as 36% Scots, 12% rUK & Ireland, 52% overseas.

Comp Sci is now the most popular course in the UK, and thus one of the most competitive.

How on earth does all this work socially at unis? When I was at Edinburgh, a million years ago, there was already a social gulf. There were:

• Scottish students, most from state schools, some privately educated, but most with Scottish accents (so not educated at Harrow etc), generally not particularly wealthy
• English students primarily privately educated and/or extremely wealthy (students living in the New Town flats bought by parents specifically for uni), some more lower middle class
• Norwegians (wealthy - New Town flats and weekends away for Norwegian Society balls in castles)
• other international students who were generally wealthy at undergrad.

Note: general categories. All groups with exceptions, but I didn't come across a Norwegian who was struggling financially.

The financial divide was important, because it determined to an extent who you socialised with. If I had to be working weekends, I certainly didn't have the time or funds to be cavorting around with the ski club.

Already when I was there, a Scottish accent usually meant a less well off family background.

Now it sounds like it's basically a given.

The opportunities available to the different groups were also radically different..it wasn't the Scottish students who were filling up the unpaid internships in London over the summer, because we had to work.

The WP scheme seems like a mess.

It also seems like the system, over 20 years later still hasn't gotten a handle on the difference between 5 Highers in one year, vs 3 one year and two the next. This to me is something that should have been sorted long before adding postcodes to applications.

I got 5 Highers in one year (only option at my school) and the two Bs were considered the same as two B’s of someone who only sat two exams that year. Same with my As. It seemed ridiculously unfair.

Having said that. As a pupil from a single mother, immigrant, living in Sighthill, perhaps I'd have got more uni opportunities than my friend who lived in Merchiston with two parents who had the time, inclination and money to provide extra help with her education, and who ended up with 5 As. I remember the confusion at finding out she could ask her parents about homework if she had a question - and they helped! I had thought everybody did homework 100% alone! I thought it was like cheating to get help. She had a mother who had done an English and Law degree and father in the sciences, so everything was covered!

As for mobile high earners staying in Scotland for uni, I know some who've returned from working abroad 5-6 years before uni, with the assumption that their kids will have free uni. With home being in an expensive postcode and their kids in private schools, I think they're going to be in for a shock. But I'm not staying up at night worrying for them, because they undoubtedly have the means to support their kids through uni and beyond.

It annoys me though, the people both in Scotland and rUK who are totally ignorant to the difficulties. The English who say they are thinking of moving here for the free university. And you have to correct them and they are shocked! They LOVE the SNP outwith Scotland. They don’t realise what a mess the whole country is.

The SNP did some very good PR during the pandemic. Sturgeon's presentation skills are 100 times better than Boris's. Leave what she was actually saying out of the equation - she stood there looking groomed and professional, spoke clearly, didn't bumble and stutter, didn't use Latin. People liked that and responded to that.

People in England who were not having to deal with the ridiculous policies about vertical drinking and not crossing county borders and masks for kids all day in school compared her to Boris and thought she was doing a marvellous job. Especially since all the stuff about parties has come out.

Many English people, especially Labour voters, are shocked when I say I can't stand Sturgeon and the SNP.

Yep, my boss at the time was from Northern England, union man, labour man etc thought she was amazing, and his family. I spent many hours telling him that it was all smoke and mirrors. He is otherwise a very astute guy who I have a lot of time for.

I think he got the message 😁

I hear she was a very diligent politician, who read everything, with great recall (😄), unlike others. Boris et al complete charlatans.

But yeah- the faux egalitarianism is quite hard to swallow.

@aweegc the system does acknowledge the value of Highers say in one sitting though, it's often stated that at least four need to be sat in one sitting and a higher number of As are required in the mix if, for example, you sat 3 +3 ò 3+2. It probably wouldn't affect those applying for an HNC but it does for the competitive unis.

I have long suspected that there is perhaps a hidden agenda behind the cap on uni places, a desire to spread the bright kids out across more institutions, to encourage use of cheaper hybrid college/uni degrees and graduate apprenticeships and push kids towards practical and stem subjects. This is probably not a bad thing from an economic/ practical point of view but we are not used to kids having their choices restricted compared to others (and it would be refreshing if the powers that be were honest about it.) I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing but it's being done on the cheap and retaining good quality staff in colleges is challenging.
The current system worked out for our family:
DS1 dropped out of school without Highers but had been able to access a stem degree by going through the hybrid college/ uni route .
DS2 was able to reach very high academic standards and get " perfect" exam results and get into an ancient uni.
DS3 does a creative subject so his application was portfolio based and his exam results were secondary.
I do feel we have been very lucky and I do feel for young people who end up feeling second best.

Missed this....

I am surprised there is so much demand. One thing to bear in mind though is that there are not that many options for undergrad teacher training in Scotland - Stirling, Dundee, Strathcylde, Glasgow, Queen Margaret. Other options for people wanting to do Postgraduate, and other for those training in gaelic. If a kid has decided that they absolutely definitely want to be a primary teacher, they are going to apply to all of the teaching schools, whether it's a top choice or not.

So Strathclyde (or any other) might have 1000 applications, but not 1000 people who definitely want to go. DD applied to Strathclyde for teaching (and got an offer) but it was her third choice after Glasgow and Stirling. Glasgow is harder to get into as it is an integrated Masters course, and they interview as standard which puts people off. Stirling has a lower intake than Strathclyde, think there are 80 or 85 in each year. Anecdotally, there were people applying for teaching in DD's year who didn't meet the basic requirements of a pass in Higher English and B in Nat 5 Maths (in addition to other highers of course). When there are more applicants than places, of course the unis are going to prioritise the kids with the maths and english in the bag over those who are resitting Nat 5 maths for the third time in S6 in hope of a B.

DD had AAAAB in her Highers and got 5 unconditional offers for Uni, we are in Bearsden which is not known for its deprivation. For teaching, she also did a bit of work experience, she helped for 2 years at Rainbows, and used her free periods in S6 to volunteer in P1 at her old primary school. Would encourage your DD to do similar as it really helped DD decide that she really did want to be in schools.

A few years ago I wrote a reference for one of my sports teachers applying to do primary teaching at uni - she was leading scouts and junior band was our best sports teacher and still the uni was questioning whether she had demonstrated enough commitment and experience for the course. It’s super competitive (she did get in).

I know someone doing teacher training in Aberdeen...

We might know the same person!

Thanks @Stroopwaffels DD has N5 Maths at B and got an A for English. She got AAAAABB overall. She now has a tutor for Higher English to make sure she gets the B minimum for teaching but I'm fairly confident she'll get good grades.

I think you are bang on regarding people not being aware of the entry requirements - especially the N5 maths requirement. You would think the school would tell them, or the careers adviser though, prior to application.

The work experience aspect is harder to get as I assume most primaries have criminal record checks before letting volunteers in and her own school may not allow her to use her free periods in this way.

UWS education course is in Ayr, which I suspect a lot of applicants aren't aware of. It would be 1.5 hours on the train both ways and I don't think DD would want to live away from home (she's the youngest in her year so would be the youngest at uni too). Stirling is about 45 mins by car but will she drive by then?

Stirling's widening participation criteria is not very clear - does anyone know?

It's also at Hamilton, 30 mins on the train from Glasgow then a five minute walk.

The work experience aspect is harder to get as I assume most primaries have criminal record checks before letting volunteers in and her own school may not allow her to use her free periods in this way.

Not in daughter's case. She was never on her own with any children though, she would sit in a corner of the room playing phonics games or number games with a small group while the teacher was there.

I'd be surprised if school discourages this sort of work experience, they are usually keen that S6 kids do something constructive with the time! If she's interested any volunteering with children would be a good idea, Brownies, Cubs, gymnastics club, whatever.

On the Maths/English thing - this is a national requirement set by the government. I think kids/parents see the requirement and just think it's a Uni specific thing and that there might be wriggle room. "I only have a C in Nat 5 Maths but also have physics and chemistry and a clutch of good Highers so that'll balance out" and it doesn't work like that. I think it catches people out more who are going for secondary teaching and already have their degree in French or PE or Art and it comes as a bit of a shock that they need a B in Nat 5 maths to get onto a PCGE.

@Ineedaholiday23 That's the postgraduate course, not the undergraduate course (just checked the digital prospectus and BA Education is only at Ayr). You've kind of proved my point that applicants/parents don't check the campus location or the grade requirements before applying.

If you phone the admissions teams, are they likely to tell you what the people who got places last year got? I emailed Edinburgh on their chat thing but they just said the entry requirements are on the web page.

DSs school were very clear at the parents info evenings when DC are choosing their options about requirements required for teaching and in particular those who may come to teaching later. They'd had a former pupil with exactly the B in maths issue.

However, I'm not an applicant or applicant's parent . I'm a mentor for teachers.

My son has 5 As from s5 and whilst I’m certain he’ll get in somewhere he may not get into likes of Gla, Edi, St As etc. The system is a mess. Still as long as privately educated English and overseas kids get in eh who cares about the futures of our own professions.

Totally agree my boy worked his backside off much harder than I did back in the day! I also got 5 As