Is it getting impossible for Scottish kids to get into Scottish uni's

[dumdededdumdum]

Please tell me it isn't so. Hearing Strathclyde business school is 5A's in first sitting these days. What are your experiences? Don't know what to advise my child for their choices as the entry requirements seem so high.

Same thing is happening in Ireland - international students pay far higher fees so medicine, engineering, science and business courses are increasingly difficult for Irish kids to get into. Universities here very actively recruit international students.

That doesn't make much sense, unless the high earners are gaming the system by buying a second home in a deprived postcode just to get a free University place that they could possibly afford to pay for and depriving others of limited resources? How often is that happening?

Poscode politics is a heap of shit. My postcode growing up would have qualified me for a contextual offer. I was neither deprived nor unsupported by my parents. Its a system gamed by the middle classes whilst the actual deprived kids are barely finishing school.

Living in a deprived area is not the same as actually being deprived.

Yes I know how student loans work, I have one just graduated and the other in their last year.

I meant that fees applied equally so higher fees in Scotland.

No they don't already have access to do that anyway, they can't do that in Scotland. So if they fail to get one of the available £2k fee places, they don't have access to the other spaces with higher fees. Scottish places on clearing are pretty few and far between and rare for any "popular" courses at highly regarded unis.

So they have a choice of trying again the next year, trying a different route, doing a course they don't really want or trying clearing places in rUK.

Most student loans are never repaid, they wouldn't be in any different position than other UK students and the money saved could help with grants for those in need.

It would be wonderful if all education was free but that's never going to happen.

I agree.
My Ds is ASD & (very) Dyslexic. He also has clinical anxiety.
Didn't do brilliantly in his S5's so took the HNC route. Got an A (ave 97%)
Offers from Abertay & Napier for a range of computing degrees at Y1/ 2. This was via clearing as his college tutor failed to supply a reference (lazy git).
Ds has had no contextual help afaik & our postcode is not deprived (surprising!)
He has a LOT of support at home.

I would say its virtually impossible to game the system to get a widening access place. You need more than a postcode. You need to send a separate application and there will be support letters from the school. You can't just send your kids to Merchiston or Boroughmuir and buy a flat in Muirhouse.
Most people don't realise a free university education means limited access to University places until their kids are at that stage. And at that point at least there's a chance of a free place. You live in England, Wales or NI there is zero chance.

Your not getting what I mean.
Higher earners would be better off living in England due to the income-tax rules. But they have to look at the bigger picture.

Moving south means they'll be better off but kids need to pay fees.

If kids are going to end up studying in England paying big fees, what is their to keep the parents in Scotland?

Surely that would mean they would move to England, not stay in Scotland then, because the rules would mean the one thing keeping them in Scotland is not going to happen?

It is a consideration for mobile people. A plus for Scotland was free university. Negatives are extra taxes, less opportunity, weather etc.

It's not the only plus about Scotland obviously and most of us will take any ole shite they fling at us because we wouldn't move.

I wouldn't want to put my kids under that much pressure.

I'd tell them 'there's a million other things you can do with your life'.

I'd have them consider alternatives to uni.
Personally, college has proved more enjoyable and more useful than my uni course ever did. Wish I hadn't wasted all that money.

Unless they want to be a doctor or a lawyer and are smart af... I would encourage my kids to just find a nice job they liked doing and work their way up.

Ahh I get you now. You're saying the Scottish students can't compete for the 'rest of UK places' in Scottish universities. So if they put all Scottish universities and fail, they need to go to Clearing.
What you said is true, they should be allowed to compete for the rest of UK places, but the current situation is somewhat similar situation with 'rest of UK' unis where kids miss all their offers and end up in Clearing as well.

My point was more along the lines of - people have more than one choice why don't the put one non-Scottish choice as an insurance? If they understood that the loans would never be repaid then it would be a small price to pay for getting into university.

If on the other hand they thought loans = high cost and their only options was Scottish universities they wouldn't even consider doing the above.

I think if you’re a high earner (or even a moderate earner) with small children it would be prudent to set up a savings vehicle for future uni funding. Great if free uni education for all continues, but it seems to be running into more and more issues.

@dumdededdumdum: Take a look at Heriot Watt. The best person in my DDs AH Maths class went there to do a finance type course as he got 2nd year entry so could be done in 3 years. DD and I went to open day and were impressed. I suspect my DDs love of Edinburgh is more the city than the uni.

I can't see how the SNP can keep offering free fees for Scottish students?
There simply isn't enough money in the national pot.
I will be pleased if I can get Ds through 'a Degree for free' (Y2 entry: 3 yrs to go..)
Dd will be 2 years behind. Who knows what will have happened by then?
They can live at home & commute (its a horrible commute but its free & they then have no fees & no living costs either). I'd NOT want them to ring up mega £ of costs, esp as they are ASD & might find the job market tricky after anyway.
Edinburgh itself is hard to get into but Edinburgh Napier & Edinburgh Heriot Watt are easier. They are less 'far behind' in the league tables than you'd expect. You still get the Edinburgh city experience (tho' student accom is £+ nightmare)

My DS purposely sat two highers early in S4 to get a leg up for university application for 2023, (skipping Nat 5s) in two subjects and then an advanced higher early in S5. A lot of his study was independent from the school and as long as he was on track for good grades, they were pretty flexible. The lack of projects due to Covid helped him to do this. He achieved all A grades - so 6As at higher and one at advanced higher by end of S5.

We all thought he would easily receive all his offers. (He goes to a state school but he is not widening participation).

He's currently studying at Edinburgh Uni having eventually received one late offer. Glasgow and St As had not even replied by end April so he was pretty disheartened that his efforts to stand out hadn't paid off. He withdrew eventually to secure his Edinburgh place and book accommodation. He actually started his course a couple of weeks ago and is having a ball.

fair enough- your post was worded as if you thought that should be the easy option.

But I agree there is a lack of transparency and high entry requirements

I also think the whole ethos of free uni fees makes for a more parochial society. The very wealthy families are still going to send their DC to Exeter, Cambridge, London, Paris, New York - because money is no object and £9k fees neither here nor there. Most other families are going to encourage their DC to go to uni in Scotland because it is free - the worry of racking up substantial debt for fees and loans for accommodation or whatever is a massive factor for many of us, even those on paper who have a decent income. It certainly was a factor for my older child who had offers for two very similar degrees at two very similarly regarded unis and went for the free one. The prospect of an extra £30k fees for a 3 year degree at Manchester or York is a big factor in that decision.

So when you have lots of Scottish DC staying in Scotland and mixing with lots of other Scottish DC, you do not have young people broadening their horizons. There is a whole big country and world out there and this whole policy is clipping wings. An 18 or 19 year old doesn't know what's out there and the system is not encouraging them to go out and explore.

This. Same with the schools. I would have got a contextual offer for my school but it was and still is perfectly fine.

To be fair most Scottish universities are pretty international these days. I doubt you’re broadening your horizons much more moving from Aberdeen to Manchester than you are from Aberdeen to glasgow

I don’t think that’s correct at all. Most unis will automatically give you a flag if your postcode is in the correct area

Exactly this!

We did let to an international student once and was shocked to find out how much they were paying in fees on top of their NHS surcharge, visa fees, insurance etc. There has to be more appreciation of these international students who are essentially bankrolling the Unis, but more importantly, we need to call for more funding from the government so the unis don't rely so heavily on fees from international students. It's really not sustainable, as more destinations (Canada, France, Germany and Australia) are growing their share of the international student market.

@BigBoysDontCry this is what I was referring to - people don't understand how student loans work and are worried about racking up debt.

@Stroopwaffels Of course people given both options are going to choose the free one, but a student loan isn't the same as other sorts of debt. You only start paying it back once you earn above a certain amount, if your income drops repayment automatically drops too, and after a certain period of time its wiped off. It's more like a graduate tax.
You can argue that 'debt is debt' in terms of money coming out of your pocket, but unlike other debt this is not only tied to your income but also not going to reduce your credit score or count against you for anything. Many people never pay a penny back.
The main thing I'd be worrying about is topping up the maintenance loan (which depends on parental income) but that's not the point of the discussion here it's how debt is perceived. In fact those who are clearly on a lower income can in some cases better afford it because they get the full maintenance loan unlike those whose parents should top up on paper but can't afford to.

I don't see how the policy is clipping wings, if people understood how student loans really work and want to apply to any university like students in other parts of the UK they're free to do so! But unlike the others they have the 'additional' option of going for free uni in Scotland. So you have more options not less.

I suppose Scottish kids are pretty young when they leave school 17/18 compared to A levels? Culturally it's been quite normal to want to go to a Scottish university for your undergrad. This landscape might change that. Things like starting to look at these types of tables. I've no idea how easy it is for Scottish students to get in with highers. Thanks @SandyIrving and others suggesting alternatives. That type of dialogue is useful.