Peter Murrell has resigned with immediate effect

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65000606

Good. It's all unravelling.

From the Salmond’s mouth https://twitter.com/MatFlusk/status/843413637809274881/mediaViewer?currentTweet=843413637809274881&currentTweetUser=MatFlusk

It's in the White Paper but I've yet to find a separatist who has read it. Much easier just to spout the crap that they pick up from others - who also haven't read it.

To be fair, there are about equal numbers of non tax payers in Scotland as in England.

Those that pay in Scotland just pay more than their contemporaries in the rest of the U.K.

However, we are not as a society and contrary to what the snp would like to project, Scandinavian in our thinking, where we are all in this together.

I think the vast majority of Scottish people are quite happy for someone to pick up the tab.

the way the snp do it will lead to brain drain, lack of investment all round and a feeling of a more divided society which we see already between those that pay more tax and those that get the freebies.

surely people can see the link between this and say the lack of hours worked by experienced GPs in the NHS; there is no point in working beyond a certain amount of hours as you’ll just get taxed more.

Once in a generation" was the strapline of the separatatists. Pity they didn't make clear it was the generation of the fruit fly

It's quite ironic that you never get a unionist arguing for the union who doesn't raise this comment from Alex Salmond.

If that's the best argument for the union it doesn't say much for any arguments based on economic facts.

It's also telling the unionists often quickly descend into hyperbole such as this.

Not everyone (on either side) agrees (or agreed at the time) with the 'once in a generation' statement or the validity of Brexit as a reason to bring forward a timescale on a future vote.

Remaining in the EU was used as a key argument at the time by unionists as to why voters should vote no.

I have the rationality of seeing both sides of this argument. It's a shame I'm never shown the same respect from unionists.

Independence supporters are routinely silenced and hounded off Mumsnet due to the behaviour demonstrated by unionists on this thread (and every other one there's ever been).

That's what's dividing Scotland. We need to all be tolerant of others' views.

Go ahead and disagree but do so without the abusive tone. It's really rather shameful.

There's no rational argument to support separatism. You might as well ask to see both sides of whether the earth is flat or round.

Please don't use words like 'abusive' when want you mean is that people are complaining bitterly (and rightly so) about the absolute mess that the SNP have created in Scotland.

And it's not 'ironic' to repeat the words of Alex Salmond - that's not what irony is.

Oh and as for whinging about unionists being nasty, guess you must have missed the shouting about "coffin dodgers" spoiling your plans in 2014?

One particularly egregious example I saw was a relative of my husband's banging on about "coffin dodgers" - which would include said relative's grandmother who gave him a deposit for a flat.

It's quite ironic that you never get a unionist arguing for the union who doesn't raise this comment from Alex Salmond.

it wasn't A comment though - i mean you must have seen the clips where the number of times that (or once in a lifetime) was said by multiple people have been strung together.

i don't support independence but i would accept that a generation/lifetime doesn't need to mean twenty years+; starting on about it again in 2015 following the general election landslide was just ridiculous though!!! and actually has soured the appetite of people who might be hitting the point now where they would accept that if it had been background-only for the last 9 years it probably would be time to start to revisit timeframes, how to have the discussion, etc.

The majority of independence supporters aren't SNP supporters.

So unionists conflating the two is misleading.

I didn't personally agree with pushing for another referendum so soon, even with Brexit. Imo NS was obsessed with Brexit to the detriment of the independence movement. Plenty of others concur.

But the timescale argument is a weak one. Firstly it will expire as an argument in 11 years, barely over 2 Westminster terms.

What then? Unionists will need a stronger argument.

There's no rational argument to support separatism. You might as well ask to see both sides of whether the earth is flat or round

Independence is normal.

Should the British Empire still exist?

Did you not support Barbados leaving the commonwealth?

Do you not support any nation's right to self determination?

Should Noway still be part of Sweden?

Or do you not consider Scotland to be a nation?

I never hear unionist arguments denying the right to self determination that aren't xenophobic, colonial and authoritarian.

Comparing a nation's self determination to 'flat earth' is contrary to recognised international law.

Are you denying that Scotland as a Nation-State ever existed? Your 'flat-earth' comment is so ridiculous it is solely as means to close down any meaningful debate.

There are arguments for and against independence, why don't you try those rather than throwing insults at your opponents by comparing them to conspiracy theorists?

Please don't use words like 'abusive' when want you mean is that people are complaining bitterly (and rightly so) about the absolute mess that the SNP have created in Scotland

The terminology used in this thread by unionists has been abusive.

Again SNP does not equal the wider independence movement.

Many within the movement believe the SNP has been taken over by too many political wannabes rather than actual independence supporters.

I've asked for the unionists on this thread to provide evidence of what Scottish Labour would have done differently over the last 16 years.

Silence.

And it's not 'ironic' to repeat the words of Alex Salmond

It is ironic to use Alex Salmond in unionist arguments.

Clue:he isn't a unionist!

I'm not going to defend this person you say was using such horrid language.

Unfortunately both sides had supporters who descended into using nasty insults to others.

Hence why I've asked for people here to be more respectful and civilised.

But you have chosen to use derogatory language against me/independence supporters.

Are you going to apologise for that?

Or is it the rule that only unionists can be abusive/insulting?

Plenty agree with this.

Hence why plenty of independence supporters are glad to see the back of NS.

Imo it was a strategic mistake.

I disagree with you @Aphrathestorm. The vast majority of independence supporters I meet are SNP supporter.
I did hear of a few more people who support independence who vote for Alba rather than SNP due to their dislike of NS. These numbers are tiny though and
due to the fact that Alba does not have any local authority councillors, MSP and MPs I would argue that this is idea you are peddling is negligible.

I think the SNP really need to take a step back and take a realistic look at what needs to be done to win over people to their cause rather than using toxic language in relation to non-supporters.

To be honest they should have done this straight after Indy Ref. Using it as an opportunity to heal the divisions created, listen to why people voted no and set onto the long journey of moving towards a successful devolved state and not continually telling us it’s Westminsters fault- demonstrate what you can achieve within these confines. Sadly that has not happened.

NS did not do anything to quieten down the derogatory language used - she was our FM so should have taken the lead on this.

She didn’t attempt to engage with the no voters to try and win us over , the concerns raised at Indy Ref have not been addressed.

Unlike her predecessor, did not actively engage with businesses to alleviate their concerns, continuing the dialogue to encourage inward investment.

None of this happened and it should have been the priority.

A lot of words there @Aphrathestorm and I don't have time to respond to each of your many points. However, picking up on your main points:

I disagree that majority of independence supporters aren't SNP supporters - but you may have stats to back up your claim. Can you link to them please?

If you feel there are abusive posts please report them as per the talk guidelines. I haven't seen any, although I've seen plenty that are very critical (and rightly so) of the SNP and their years in Govt. That's what happens outside the nationalist echo chamber in a democracy.

What would Labour have done differently? How would anyone know what they or any of the other parties would have done differently? No-one knows - although I like to think they would have focused more on running a successful country without the on-going distraction of indy.

It's not ironic to repeat the words of Alex Salmond to highlight the point that independence should have been put on the back burner after the Scottish people said they didn't want it - again, that's not what irony means.

I'm not going to apologise for saying separatism is muddle headed and delusional. There's no "2 sides" as far as I'm concerned. It has no merits.

None of your examples are similar to the situation in the UK. They are only comparable if you start from the assumption that Scotland is some sort of oppressed, downtrodden underdog that needs "independence"

A realistic and sensible comparison would be why would any of the states in the USA want to break away?

I think George Orwell was very perceptive on nationalism, did not like it and warned of its dangers, which we’ve all read about through history.

The SNP have been great players of mixing up nationalism and patriotism for their own benefit.

patriotism is a passive feeling of loving the place you were born and grew up in as opposed to nationalism which is elitist and purports that the land and their society is best.
this nationalism was woven throughout their white paper where ‘due to our unique resources, land (insert whatever word is required, blah, blah, blah)in Scotland
this justifies why we should be independent.

The Czech Republic split in 1993 . Today there are still court cases in process regarding train drivers and their pensions . Many have died in the meantime not having been properly compensated . There are many other similar cases being processed 30 years on . The only people who will win if we get independence are the lawyers .

Exactly. There are so many areas where Scexit will be multiple times more complicated than even Brexit was and look how that is turning out... Dread to think what the legal fees will have been.

I agree with all of this!

Unionism is nationalism.

I get that some people have an emotional patriotic allegiance to the British state.

But no one ever admits that.

They will always vote to maintain UK sovereignty. I don't agree but I can empathise especially with regards to forces families.

I never tell these unionists they arent entitled to their views.

But independence supporters are routinely told this on MN.

I won't report posts as I don't want them removed.

The ugly face of unionism should remain for others to see.

None of your examples are similar to the situation in the UK. They are only comparable if you start from the assumption that Scotland is some sort of oppressed, downtrodden underdog that needs "independence"

Maybe do some reading in global and UK history?

At the time of the Union the Scottish population was 1/3 of England's. It's now 9%. Have you heard of the Highland Clearances? You obviously haven't seen the post WW2 revenue figures which show that Scotland was disproportionately funding the UK state? I'll bet my arm you never read the McCrone report.

A realistic and sensible comparison would be why would any of the states in the USA want to break away?

Scotland was a sovereign nation state for centuries. Name a comparable US state?