I am currently very pro Scottish Independence…

[Iheartscotland]

what do you think, objectively, are the best arguments for independence?

and/or

for remaining in the union?

Answers that are well reasoned and backed up with facts and figures would be great, but you know- go with whatever you feel.

I was pro-independence, as I thought Scotland was a more progressive and left-wing country than England, and for me the main issues were climate change and social justice, where I think Scotland did/does? better than England. I am strongly pro-EU.

However, since Brexit, I can't see how we can rejoin the EU without a problematic border with England - look at the mess in Northern Ireland. So this has put me on the fence.

Now, with the GRR Bill fiasco, independence for me has gone from "Yes, please" to "Hell, no!"

I didn’t vote SNP.

Do you not understand that all your smug talking down and superiority complexes are just pathetic when you believe all the crap spouted at us? Why on earth do you think they want the Union to hold? If we were such a drain they’d be glad to see the back of us. You’re just like all the fuckwits that believed everything they told you about Brexit.

Yeah I didn’t vote SNP, keep trying.

I didn't vote for Brexit.

It's quite possible to be a unionist, a remainer and not a Tory! I know! Mind-boggling, isn't it.

If you really think that getting heated and shouty and calling people cunts and fuckwits is the way to persuade them to embrace your tolerant nationalist cause, then you have a bit of a way to go on that.

erm yep

'as I thought Scotland was a more progressive and left-wing country than England,'

I think that's down to the SNP dare I say propaganda. As someone upthread said, a docker on Clydeside is going to have a similar outlook to a docker in Liverpool, a farmer in the Borders will probably be a lot like a farmer in Herefordshire and you probably wouldn't be able to slide a fag paper between the world view of a banker in Edinburgh and a banker in London.

I think it was Billy Connolly who said he had more of an affinity with a shipyard worker in Newcastle or Liverpool than Highland crofters or Edinburgh lawyers.

It's a total myth that Scottish people are different from our neighbours in the rest of the UK. I've lived all over the UK including N Ireland, have relatives and friends all over the UK. WE ARE ALL THE SAME.

This

Well I’m not an MP’s assistant or even an MSP’s assistant, but just assume I am, assume the worst possible faith and terrible motives on my part because for all anyone knows I could be lying. Everyone on this thread could be lying.
All the Scottish people could be in fact be English people, all the people who say they used to be pro independence but aren’t now could be life long unionists or vice versa. All the pro-Indy people could secretly despise the English and that’s their only real reason for wanting to leave. So-what does that change in your opinion? Do you think it would likely change people’s responses?

I’m interested in the arguments and reasoning for each position and to a lesser extent whether people could be argued out of their positions or if it’s more of a feeling. I’m interested in them because I want to compare the best arguments from both sides. Surely whatever people’s motivations the best arguments are going to be the best arguments no matter why they feel what they feel?

Thanks to everyone who has responded so far, I’ve been reading and thinking about all the different perspectives, I especially appreciate more the detailed posts which have sent me off researching further. I’m still hoping to hear some more pro Indy arguments before I go into detail on the thread with my views. Who knows I might have changed my position by then. some more stats or thoughts on what would have to change for people to change their minds on independence either way would be great if people have them.

I’ve no interest in persuading you of anything. I don’t know anyone like you in RL, I don’t recognise the way of thinking on this board in RL, it bears no resemblance to my experience of living here, and I find your attitudes and opinions shameful. Probably best I hide this board and leave you all to implode in a frenzy of smugness.

And for the last time, I didn’t call English people cunts, I called the people I didn’t vote for aka the English Tories cunts. Which they are and you’ll not ever persuade me differently. Same goes for Labour. I also didn’t call the people here fuckwits, I called the Brexit voting idiots fuckwits, which again they are and I’m not interested in being persuaded otherwise seeing as the UK is a laughing stock because of Brexit.

I’ve also lived in England. I’ve lived in London, Leatherhead and Ipswich. The majority of people are nothing like the majority of Scottish people where I live. People are warm and friendly and talk to each other, look after each other. You can sit in the same seat in the same carriage on a train for years in England and they all sit there in their own wee bubble not talking to each other. Where I’m from you get on the bus and by the end of your journey you’ll have chatted with loads of people. People don’t even know their neighbours down there. Only friendly people I met were dog walkers.

Whilst I didn't vote for brexit I would not call all such voters rude and dehumanising words

Far more sensible to think why do perfectly nice rational people do such apparently stupid things

From the OP

'are there any specific ways the union strengthens Scotland beyond trade/ freedom of moment etc?'

Trade and freedom of movement are incredibly important. Well over 60% of Scotland's export trade is with ruk. Imagine what would happen if there were barriers to that trade. Brexit would look like a walk in the park.

I know it's not fashionable, but the historical and emotional ties that bind too. Scots and English have fought side by side, Scots were as intrinsic to the empire, people have crossed the border to work, love, learn for centuries.

CoorieInByTheFire, sorry, are you saying you don't know any no voting remainers who don't vote Tory? I know loads.

I also don't recognise your picture of England, or for that matter, Scotland.

I live in the North of England at the moment. People chat at the drop of a hat, in shop queues, walking the dog, on the bus. I've done plenty of bus trips in Scotland where no-one chats to people they don't know.

You obviously don't like England or the English. You may think that's not the case but it's very, very obvious from your posts.

Finding the attitudes and opinions of people who don't share your views shameful suggests you live in a serious echo chamber. If there's another independence referendum, you'll not win anyone over to your side with your disdain.

I had this debate with a friend recently. He is from Warwickshire but lived in Scotland since he was 17. I'm Scottish.

He made this argument but incidentally he did vote yes in the referendum as did I. It isn't really an argument that resonates with me - I feel this way about workers all throughout the world and feel no greater affinity with someone in Newcastle (a place I've never been) versus other European cities I've lived in.

It doesn't change my motivations for independence whatsoever.

I've rarely seen what you describe on scotsnet I have seen threads and posts (including mine) about some of the relief from GRC being blocked or hating but agreeing sometimes with a Tory or Labour MP.

I fins it very bizarre that you swear at anyone with an opposing political view though do you do this in RL?

As for your views on England well yes that's common in the South East of England but England is much bigger then that and the SW is very friendly as is the North.

It's a bit like me saying everyone in Glasgow is aggressive because I had a bad experience on 1 night out.....

Well the delightful side of nationalism has definitely reared its head on this thread.

Mhairi is that you pet?

I hate to be a pedant, but as an economist the Scottish budget would be cut by at least 20% on Indy. It’s a fact. That’s before factoring in the economic cost of any border nonsense if you want to try to get into the EU, and currency devaluation problems, and trying to finance loans without being able to issue gilts because you have no central bank, and big companies and high earners fleeing south because they don’t want to be used as a cash cow to try to prop up a failing economy, and not coming anywhere near the economic conditions to rejoin the eu.

Need I go on? But yes, I must be talking bollocks because some highly intelligent yes voter says so.

Vote yes if you want to live in a separate country, but don’t expect any public services or any welfare payments if you do.

It might be you though as many in London don’t have that experience. We live in a nice community where people know each other and even get together

Exactly the sort of place I live in here. Warm, friendly, welcoming to strangers, and surprisingly to most of you I have a lot of friends and am popular.

I also don’t swear at people in RL, just as I haven’t here, apart from calling Brexiters fuckwits, which is hardly crime of the month, and as far as I’m concerned, true. It’s caused incalculable damage to the UK, and we didn’t vote for it and had no choice.

And no, I don’t know anyone who’d actually admit to voting Conservative here, plenty in England but that’s different, they’re one of the main parties. Maybe my bit of Glasgow is a bubble, if it is I’m really glad because so far you’ve covered yourselves in about as much glory as I have here.

Conveniently the post where I say ‘the English cnts that I didn’t vote for ‘ has been deleted, so I can’t refer you back to what I actually said, which makes it very obvious I wasn’t attacking English people. I lived in England for 5 years, and yes I found it a very cold and unfriendly place but I wasn’t in the North and I’m from Glasgow where it feels like people really are completely different to that. In RL I’m chatty and friendly and make and keep friends easily, I really struggled down south because people just didn’t want to know others. There I never got to know a single neighbour in any of the places I lived, people looked at me like I had two heads if I said hello, here I knew my whole floor within a month, and was welcomed and encouraged to join in dog walks and groups and go for coffee.

As for the Nats slurs, maybe you should all read back what you’ve said, because if you are trying to convert people you’re also going the wrong way about it, you’ve been rude and belittling and sneery, and so very superior in your comments towards anyone who thinks independence is a good idea. This thread is exactly the sort of thread that’s put me off posting here, and I really regret posting now. Like I said, you’re not the Scots I know at all.

As I said previously, no country has ever regretted independence, comparable countries thrive, and independence does not mean being governed by the SNP. Who I didn’t vote for. But that doesn’t fit the narrative here so instead you twist and mock and belittle.

'rude and belittling and sneery, and so very superior in your comments'

Aye, so ye have

Actually, your posts are really pissing me off with their 'Scots good, English bad' vibe.

There are areas in Scotland where outsiders are viewed with caution and suspicion, where it can take years to be accepted. To portray the country as one of unalloyed welcome, friendliness, openness is quite frankly delusional.

I didn’t do that, I haven’t said that.

I’ve spoken about my personal experiences and named where I lived. Just as I’ve named where I live now. I know perfectly well that if I lived in eg the Highlands or many islands I’d experience a completely different sort of welcome, particularly if I wasn’t Scottish. However that is exactly the sort of experience I had when living down south, so please don’t invalidate my lived experiences just because they don’t suit.

The twisting of what I’ve said probably pisses me off as much as my posts piss you off. The difference is I’m not lying and twisting words.

I can now see why people do find some parts of Scotland very unwelcoming. It’s been an experience and a sharp learning curve of just how manipulative some people can be.