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Original poster

I am currently very pro Scottish Independence…

424 replies

Iheartscotland · 26/02/2023 13:50

what do you think, objectively, are the best arguments for independence?

and/or

for remaining in the union?

Answers that are well reasoned and backed up with facts and figures would be great, but you know- go with whatever you feel.

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 04/03/2023 16:03

AlexandriasWindmill · 04/03/2023 15:47

If they genuinely thought Scotland was too wee, too poor and too stupid, they would happily cut Scotland loose. The people trying to keep Scotland in the UK are the same ones who consistently voted in a corrupt Tory Government. They don't care about people who they consider poor and stupid, so they sure as heck wouldn't care about a country that was.
They know exactly what Scotland brings to the union and that's why they don't want Scotland to leave. They also would find it much more difficult to push through neoliberal policies and a FTP system when everyone could see a very different political landscape over the border.

I genuinely do think it will hit you hard and cause division. But may also cost us too in setting it up. And a hard border is something both sides endure.

BigBoysDontCry · 04/03/2023 17:20

The too wee, too stupid thing was a phrase first said by the SNP.

NatashaDancing · 04/03/2023 17:27

BigBoysDontCry · 04/03/2023 17:20

The too wee, too stupid thing was a phrase first said by the SNP.

Exactly.

TrinnySmith · 04/03/2023 17:34

I can't believe this thread is still going.

I see the tedious arguments go round and round.

MarshaBradyo · 04/03/2023 17:35

TrinnySmith · 04/03/2023 17:34

I can't believe this thread is still going.

I see the tedious arguments go round and round.

When people post this I think why don’t they just hide the thread they find tedious. Rather than read it and post.

happygolurkey · 04/03/2023 17:36

How could I not know what the Barnett Formula is when it's constantly referred to on endless threads on the main board here as justification for all the 'we're paying for you lot' comments

Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean there aren't sound arguments on both sides of the debate

happygolurkey · 04/03/2023 17:39

the 'too wee .etc' comment was saying we need to stop seeing ourselves, as a nation, that way. Which is true. not that we are too wee, poor etc

BigBoysDontCry · 04/03/2023 18:08

Like everything else by the SNP it was said as if it was how others saw us and to spread discontent, as usual.

annabelindajane · 04/03/2023 18:31

We are one country , no one is dependent as we work as one . Scotland spends a lot more than her income . I for one am incredibly grateful that we have that powerhouse that is London . The reason our pound would lose its value is the IMF would set the rate at which we could borrow money on the markets and it would be at a high rate of interest . Scotland can borrow more at present if she wants to it’s just that the Bank of England won’t back the extra borrowing so they don’t borrow on the bond markets as it’s too scary . Bit like it being independent.

Staggie · 04/03/2023 19:08

Scotland can borrow more at present if she wants to it’s just that the Bank of England won’t back the extra borrowing so they don’t borrow on the bond markets as it’s too scary . Bit like it being independent.

Can you explain more on this? Thanks

TheBelmont · 04/03/2023 19:40

Anyone beginning to think devolution was a bad idea?
I was 19 at the time of the devolution referendum …I’m embarrassed to say I can’t even remember if I voted for it or against it.

NatashaDancing · 04/03/2023 19:50

TheBelmont · 04/03/2023 19:40

Anyone beginning to think devolution was a bad idea?
I was 19 at the time of the devolution referendum …I’m embarrassed to say I can’t even remember if I voted for it or against it.

The first devolution referendum was the first thing I voted in. I voted no in it and the other 2. If there was one to get rid of Holyrood I'd vote to get rid of it.

I've moved across the political spectrum from very left wing to moderate Tory but at no point supported "independence" or devolution.

NatashaDancing · 04/03/2023 19:52

happygolurkey · 04/03/2023 17:36

How could I not know what the Barnett Formula is when it's constantly referred to on endless threads on the main board here as justification for all the 'we're paying for you lot' comments

Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean there aren't sound arguments on both sides of the debate

No, there are no sound arguments on the separatist side.

happygolurkey · 04/03/2023 20:09

no, you just don't agree with them

NatashaDancing · 04/03/2023 20:11

happygolurkey · 04/03/2023 20:09

no, you just don't agree with them

Carry on deluding yourself. It's just sentimentality.

happygolurkey · 04/03/2023 20:15

you seem to know an awful lot about me

happygolurkey · 04/03/2023 20:18

typical of the way things always go on Scotnet, Unionists have no ability to be respectful of anyone with a different view - just arrogance, patronising comments and sweeping statements - why most folk just keep out of it

Babdoc · 04/03/2023 20:26

It is neither arrogant nor patronising to simply state the economic facts of life.
The SNP’s own researchers admit that an independent Scotland would be considerably poorer economically. The average Scots family would be at least £2,000 per year worse off.
If you think that the emotional thrill of being in a separate foreign country from your friends and relatives in England is worth the deprivation, go for it.

happygolurkey · 04/03/2023 20:40

it's a bit patronising to ask someone if they've ever heard of the Barnett Formula is it not? and to tell them they are deluded? constantly tell them their views are down to an 'emotional thrill? By all means counter arguments with facts and figures but why the constant derisory personal attacks? Anyway, nothing is going to change on Scotnet and a complete waste of time and energy talking to folk who've already decided no other view than their own has any validity. have a nice weekend

TiptoeThroughTheToadstools · 04/03/2023 20:56

I am pro independence voted SNP all my life until the last election, cannot support a party who will happily erode the rights and safety of women and children. They have lost my vote for good. When I can, I will vote Alba, but being a small party they don't have a huge number of people standing. I believe Scotland subsidies England in a lot of ways. I also think no matter how Scotland votes, our numbers are too low in comparison to England's population, to make any sort of difference to results at all. Its not equal. Scotland have a lot of industries that can export and the EU has already said, Scotland would be welcomed back as an independent country. I think WM have spent a lot of time telling us we are too wee and too poor to make it on our own, if that's the case why are they so desperate for us to stay. I think WM view Scotland as a resource to be sucked dry.

Coxspurplepippin · 04/03/2023 23:35

'Scotland have a lot of industries that can export and the EU has already said, Scotland would be welcomed back as an independent country. I think WM have spent a lot of time telling us we are too wee and too poor to make it on our own'

Scotland's main export market is the rest of the UK - well over 60%. Imagine what barriers to that market would do to the Scottish economy.

The only person who ever uttered the 'too wee, too poor' statement was Sturgeon.

The EU will welcome Scotland if it meets their criteria for membership, which has been pointed out time and time again is unlikely for years. And years. And years.

Even independence supporters have recognised the damage that a vote for independence would do to the economy - decades of problems. While I might (just) be prepared to accept that, and the rest of my life going down the pan to achieve some imagined futuristic ideal of independence, I'm not prepared to bugger up the future of my children and prospective grandchildren without a lot more guarantees.

BigBoysDontCry · 05/03/2023 10:00

We should be criticising the party in power. That's the job of the electorate to keep a balance. The problem is wheesht for indy where a large proportion of society is unable to criticise in order to achieve a single issue, even the party mps/msps.

I love the irony where its banged on that we don't get who we vote for in Westminster and it's all the tories or the English people at fault. But vast amounts of Scots don't get who they vote for in Holyrood and that's democracy, even though those unlucky enough to have an SNP representative know that their mp/MSP will consider party over their constituents every single time.

IkBenDeMol · 05/03/2023 11:38

My previous MP blocked a whole pile of unionist leaning constituents on Twitter for criticising Sturgeon/Salmond, and for pointing out the photo he was using on publicity shots was 25 years out of date.

They have no interest in representing everyone. Just the ones who vote for them. Same as when the "blended learning" rubbish was all kicking off and loads of us were emailing everyone and anyone. I got responses from Labour, COnservative, Independents, Lib Dem. Radio silence from the SNP/Greens.

That is not how a mature democracy should work.

annabelindajane · 05/03/2023 11:49

Staggie · 04/03/2023 19:08

Scotland can borrow more at present if she wants to it’s just that the Bank of England won’t back the extra borrowing so they don’t borrow on the bond markets as it’s too scary . Bit like it being independent.

Can you explain more on this? Thanks

Scotgov is free to borrow more money on the bond markets , as much as it wishes. However any money they borrow on the bond markets for say a ferry project which then goes horribly wrong will not be bailed out by BOE .

If we are independent we will be borrowing money on the international markets
and will have our own central bank to guarantee the borrowing .

We need 100 billion for a central bank to guarantee all borrowing such as when
when the Truss economics kicked our BOE was able to step in to stop financial collapse .

This is grown up economics which with all the economic failures of Scotgov
( small country , more money per head of population) shows they do not have the skill to run a country - and no it’s not about being able to freely access the money markets . They can but know with their ill thought out policies they’d bankrupt the country . Back to the days of the Tulips ….

Original poster
Iheartscotland · 05/03/2023 22:27

happygolurkey · 04/03/2023 20:18

typical of the way things always go on Scotnet, Unionists have no ability to be respectful of anyone with a different view - just arrogance, patronising comments and sweeping statements - why most folk just keep out of it

@happygolurkey regarding your “why most folk just keep out of it” comment, do you think there are more pro-independence people who see a thread like this but avoid posting on it because of the tone of the conversation?

OP posts: