I am currently very pro Scottish Independence…

[Iheartscotland]

what do you think, objectively, are the best arguments for independence?

and/or

for remaining in the union?

Answers that are well reasoned and backed up with facts and figures would be great, but you know- go with whatever you feel.

I take it you are a Brexiter?

No. Like most Scottish people I voted to Remain and was dragged out of the EU by a bunch of English cunts I didn’t vote for. Even if every person in Scotland, Wales and NI had voted remain, we still couldn’t have overruled any English vote, and that in itself is a strong enough reason for independence.

by a bunch of English cunts

And here you have the nationalists showing their true colours.

Will you welcome the no voters feeling the same towards you when it hits them hard economically and the division is internalised in your country instead?

No more blame on the English, just each other

This is my perspective also

I am Scottish living in England

Apart from currency (at Indy ref I would have liked to have seen a paper/study on fiscal policy clearly outlined, what currency how is it backed up etc- which didn't exist)

My other point was defence and security

The British army swears an oath to the sovereign. Scottish regiments would surely be absorbed into the existing British army of Wales England and Northern Ireland

So would Scotland need to start a new army from scratch

What about MI5 MI6 etc counter terrorism work cyber defence- would this still be across Scotland and England?

I didn't know the answers to these questions to support independence and still don't now so SNP can harp on about it as long as they like but what does it actually MEAN

Scotland had to join the union because it fucked up its economy

I don't see that has changed much - until they prove they can manage an economy they can't really ask me to vote for independence

A country with a huge wealth of useful resources yet we still take more than we give from Westminster?

Ah so it’s ok for English people to call the Conservatives cunts, but I can’t because it makes me a rabid nationalist. Got you. Typical unionist hypocrisy, and this is exactly why I don’t post in Scotsnet, it’s an echo chamber of smug unionists clapping each other on the back and ignoring the fucking obvious which is we are doing so much better than England in almost every measure, which is pretty inconvenient for your arguments.

Im out, if we do gain independence I sincerely hope you all do what you said Remoaner should do and leave.

Did Malta not want to come back? We lived for a few years in a certain African country that had gained independence- hugely assisted by the UK - and the man and woman on the street ( not the corrupt rulers ) all wished they could be run by the Uk again . Loved the Catnip comment , so very very true .

The really confuses me.

How can you want independence from a government who you feel shouldn’t have control over you but who you are financially supported by, but call English people who felt the same cunts?

Easy.

We voted remain in Scotland but had no choice to leave. We’d be much better off in the EU, but that’s actually a separate issue to independence.

We are not financially supported by you at all, that’s simply not true.

I was referring to the government, not English people, as cunts. I’ve no issue with English people, that’s my fault for not being more specific and clear in my post and I’m sorry if it came across that I was calling English cunts.

It was the English who voted for Brexit, so I do think you were referring to the English as cunts.

I’m still not seeing how your want for independence is any different to people who voted for Brexit.

Personally @CoorieInByTheFire if you’re wanting a civilised, rational and intelligent debate I dont think calling anyone, irrespective of nationality or political persuasion, “cunts” is acceptable.

I don't know that the EU issue matters to many - the independence polls barely moved after the Brexit vote. You'd have thought if it was so important there would have been a huge bounce in support of independence, but there wasn't.

Also, the EU vote in Scotland could well have been skewed by Sturgeon's reference to material change - any pro independence supporter was going to vote to remain whether they wanted to leave or remain in the hope that a difference in voting patterns between Scotland and the ruk (or let's face it, England) would be that material difference.

Scotland's turn out in the EU ref was considerably lower than England's, so again, maybe Scotland actually didn't care as much as Sturgeon would have us believe. Just a point - if the Scottish voters who didn't vote in the EU ref had actually turned out and voted remain, we'd still be in the EU. I blame Scotland

Your maths is way off. Perhaps that is why you think the economics of an independent Scotland would work.

The majority to leave was 1,269,501
In Scotland 1,018,322 voted leave - if 634,751 of those Scottish leave voters had voted remain then the overall referendum result would have been remain.

You deliberately miss my point. If everyone in Scotland, NI and Wales voted against England we’d still lose. What England wants, England gets even if we all vote no.

Actually, if everyone in Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland had voted remain, with England's vote as it was, we'd still be in the EU. But they didn't. Even Scotland didn't . And Wales voted to leave.

The qualifying part of what I said is ‘that I didn’t vote for’.

Personally I think it’s pretty obvious what I was saying, but I’ve already apologised for the hard of thinking who can’t grasp that.

I haven't read the full thread but I'm pretty suspicious of the OP.

'are there any specific ways the union strengthens Scotland beyond trade/ freedom of moment etc? Is there anything that would change your mind do you think?'

The whole vibe is an MP's assistant looking for convince people to the unionist side.

If the voters in Scotland who didn’t bother to vote had voted remain, and everyone else voted the same, then we would still be in the EU. So PP is right that the Scottish no shows are why we left!

Also if none of you can see the difference between leaving the EU, when we didn’t want to because it’s financially and personally beneficial to the majority of people, when we were allowed to hold a referendum and leave - and let’s not forget that Leave stated that they’d have fought the results on such a small margin if it had gone the other way, and being in a so called voluntary union but not allowed to hold a referendum to decide if we leave, then there’s no point discussing anything with any of you because you are already biased.

Brexit: oooh we don’t like the results we challenge them and we are leaving anyway.

Scotland: fuck off you had a referendum once you’re not allowed another even though we lied to you then about the EU.

We are having to put up with Green’s in the Scottish Government that 94% of Scotland didn’t vote for.

The majority of voters didn’t vote for the SNP either.

Whole of Scotsnet is like that, brainwashed unionists babbling nonsense about bad SNP good Tories, deliberately being obtuse.

It’s fucking shameful, grovelling to those Westminster cunts - hope that was a bit clearer for you all this time.

The relevance of that is?

Actually don’t bother, I’m not interested in the shit you Labour/Tory voters spout.

I think the SNP module on winning hearts and minds through charm and intellectually rigorous debate might need a little fine tuning.