I am currently very pro Scottish Independence…

[Iheartscotland]

what do you think, objectively, are the best arguments for independence?

and/or

for remaining in the union?

Answers that are well reasoned and backed up with facts and figures would be great, but you know- go with whatever you feel.

@Iheartscotland if this is for your Higher English portfolio, you should choose another topic as this one is done too often.

@SoonToBeQueenCamilla i think someone already made that joke, not sure what it’s purpose is, is it to insult me in some way? As in the pro and anti independence debate is a juvenile thing to discuss? Is it to indicate that that I’ve posted about a boring topic? If it is meant to offend me in some way I’m afraid you’re going to have to go harder than that, I have thick skin

I'm pro union and haven't insulted any of you

Kudos @Cottagecheeseisnotcheese nice to keep it civil I think

@happygolurkey when have i rubbished your views I don't agree with you but that doesn't mean i was disrespectful I have explained quite clearly and asked questions re pro independance some of which have been answered others not

@Cottagecheeseisnotcheese what post is this referring to? I didn’t notice @happygolurkey call your posts out in particular but maybe I missed it?

@Iheartscotland happygolurkey said all pro-union posters are disrespectful

Ah sorry I see what you mean. I don’t want to speak for them as I could be wrong but I imagine they were just saying that on threads discussing Scottish independence like this one there tends to be a disproportionate number of pro-union posts being dismissive and disrespectful of the other side. They probably meant “many but not all” pro union posters are disrespectful rather than reading your posts as particularly disrespectful. Maybe not the clearest but if you go through the posts on here there is a fair amount of hyperbole regarding pro-Indy people also, I’m sure when people say they loathe nationalism and equate it to fascism they don’t actually mean that everyone who is pro Indy in fascistic, just that that’s there general impression of the movement.

@Iheartscotland I agree there is excess hyperbole on both sides, some think all SNP members are rabidly anti- English, some SNP supporters seem to think all the English are ***Tories. it is definitely more nuanced there are some die hards on both sides, some that can't or won't see a single advantage of the union, others that can't or won't see a single advantage of independance, there are pros and cons of both sides for me at the present the pros of independance are outweighted by the cons and for you it is vice versa,
it is human nature to see the side we favour as less likely to be biased and dishing out insults than the other side . a bit like aggro between rangers and celtic supporters I'm not into football and from a neutral stand point i would absolutely say they are both as bad as each other with not a hairs breadth separating them, but if you speak to one or the other they are adamant the other side is responsible for 80+% of the aggro

The Nationalists are a movement more than a political party which is why they haven’t managed the Policy side of running the country .People like to have a cause and this one feeds into a certain way of thinking . I think we are right to question Nationalism as it has in Scotland become “ it’s my way or the highway “ which is why we end up with “ wheesht for Indy” and a Dictatorship . That rings alarm bells and most alarmingly so when biological sex of women is questioned .

As a method in politics nationalism works well. You can promise utopia and point to those who are hated (WM / Tories / English) and be fairly lax on actual governance without much accountability.

It’s a movement though as you say

@MarshaBradyo

In a nutshell : it also stokes hatred and divisions .
In the greater scheme of things when there’s an horrific war going on in Europe ( now that’s real oppression) Nationalism in Scotland all smacks of self interest and not seeing the bigger picture .

Nationalism -

“ Ideology that emphasises loyalty, devotion or allegiance to a nation or nation-state and hold that such obligations outweigh other group interests . “

Yep, agree with this, I think whichever side “wins” in the end, they will have to come to some decent accommodation with each other on a practical level. That’s partly why I’m interested in what people think the compelling arguments are for and against, and what sorts of things would change their minds to the opposite stance. I think there’s a risk of each side not wanting the other to be right or to succeed too much, and that could result in Scotland underperforming (compared to its potential within or outside of the union.

The reality is each side probably wants the same thing- for Scotland to flourish, but both have different ideas about how you make that happen.
I think each side should want a strong opposing side as I think that’s the best way of getting Scotland to the best possible place, this is how you see the flaws in your side’s approach and correct course. However, if either or both sides think the other side is a lost cause somehow, or wholly irrational or acting in bad faith, or is inherently bigoted, there is a serious risk of stagnation. That way no one wins, apart from the people who love to say “I told you so”.

Also not into football but will take your word for it!

Scotland is already suffering due to the endless quest of the ruling party for independence. Who in earth would invest in Scotland or knowing whether in 5 years or so the country they have based their business in will go under a considerable upheaval which would see your skilled staff running for the borders and your corporation tax rate going through the roof? Investors like political stability. The lack of stability actively inhibits the scottish economy.

@Iheartscotland I agree in order to move forward in a debate you need to look at and understand the very best points of the opposition not their achilles heels and deal with the best reasons in as reasoned a way as possible not just to allay fears with words but to address both the concern and the reason behind the opposition, basically most of the time people do not like too much change and if in doubt will opt for status quo,

in Brexit the remainers relied too heavily on this as well as various airy fairy promises by leave side, I think the problems post brexit may have Scottish independence harder in one way as the wonderful promises of all the good that would come with brexit never came ( OK so a global pandemic lockdown and a war in Ukraine means it will be very very hard to know what is truly because of brexit and what is not) but it might make people a little more wary of things like a deal with rUK will be straightforward, the bank of England will be fine, the currency will be fine, I do not think serious thinking supporters of independance truly believe it will be easy at all but they think it will be worth it in the long run. I think the economy and currency is the major stumbling block and how secure are our pensions and mortgages, I would need to know the details of this before a vote

That’s partly why I’m interested in what people think the compelling arguments are for and against,

You keep saying that , but as far as I'm concerned there are no good , far less compelling, arguments for separatism.

The arguments against were clearly set out in 2014 and on here.

I do not think serious thinking supporters of independance truly believe it will be easy at all but they think it will be worth it in the long run.

And what will be "worth it"? Decades of political uncertainty and economic upheaval for what? To say "I'm Scottish" - so what?

But we had that vote @Iheartscotland and then it just started again because what independence side didn't like the outcome?!
That the once in a generation (which was stated by the independence movement) wasn't actually once in a generation because it didn't end in the result they wanted?!

Some of us just want to get on with life and not face constant hyperbole. Life is tough enough at the moment as it is without throwing the bomb of a divorce into the economy and a hard border.
10 years ago I would have said I never want to leave Scotland now I can't see myself staying another 10 years as frankly it's knackering.

I think for some nationalists the emotional case for an independent Scotland is the most compelling argument. It’s led by the heart.

So yes. That Scottish passport may seem totally worth it to some people. Pretty much any practical detail will seem less important than that.

It’s like trying to play a game with a six year old who keeps changing the rules any time they’re not getting their own way.

The problem is that is really the only argument for independence; an emotional one.

Yes for some people being independent is a principle not linked to whether Scotland is or is not economically better off, even if proved worse off long term they would rather be independent, just like some people would rather live frugally and only work 3 days than earn more but work 5 days to them the frugality is worth it for free time,
the same principle can be applied to Unionists the union matters more than the financial arguements
however for most people they are only going to be for or against if they are persauded one or other side will benefit them long term, like floating voters in a key marginal,
no one can persude die hard unionists or independents to change , just like some people will vote Tory or labour because they always have and always will, it is like supporting a team, my team whether they win or lose,
just like general elections it is the floating centre that decide it, they have to be persuaded that either the Right are not too right or the left are not too radical, so when the left went a bit too far left for most under J Corbyn the middle voted Tory, when the middle think the Tories are not doing well enough with NHS etc they vote soft left ( ie Blair etc)

I’m late to the discussion here, im Scottish and have lived in London for over 30 years. I’d be happy not to have a vote in any future referendum, it should be on residence. And people in Scotland can vote as they please. Personally, I’m an instinctual remainer or unionist. I understand the democratic argument based on the idea that a majority in Scotland might vote differently from a majority in England, but not always. And we may well have a labour government in westminster soon. I don't hold with the idea that Scots are somehow genetically more left wing, there’s a voting habit, and plenty of Scots tories too. And i don't hold with the idea floated in few posts here that the ‘Scottish people’ are somehow thwarted in their quest for independence by the English and Westminster. Over half of the residents of Scotland appear to not want independence according to the last referendum and recent polls. If this had been acknowledged more since 2014 then some division might have healed, and the SNP perhaps wouldn't be in the bad state it looks to be now, and who knows, independence might be closer for those that wish it. Maybe a bit more devolution might get a similar result in the long run, but with a lot less pain than years of Brexit like negotiation after breaking the union.