I am currently very pro Scottish Independence…

[Iheartscotland]

what do you think, objectively, are the best arguments for independence?

and/or

for remaining in the union?

Answers that are well reasoned and backed up with facts and figures would be great, but you know- go with whatever you feel.

I'd like a few more years to make up my mind - sure I'm not the only one! At the moment the economic case doesn't stack up. I didn't appreciate how different many Scottish people feel and how important independence is to some before moving here but I'd been out of the UK for some time when we moved to Scotland.

Westminster isn't much to write home about, but given rUK is always going to be our major trading partner and markets control us to a large extent we are interdependent whether we attain some nominal sense of full sovereignty or not.

The people who want independence that I know have a big chip on their shoulder about the Westminster Gov and give no thought as to whether we would actually be better off . They don’t have much to say about the Scottish Gov which is pretty bad imv. Keep the central belt happy and stuff the rest.

In fact I don’t think Scotland is a United country other than the independence supporters. The rest is quite divided - Do the oil workers give a monkeys about southern farmers. Shetland threatens to go it alone. Glaswegians and Edinburgh are rivals and the Highlands and Islands is full of incomers wanting a quiet life.

But to stop the whingeing independence voters going on id accept independence - but I don’t think we’d get into the EU - it would be an opening for Catalonia to demand independence too and Spain won’t have that.

If I thought that the Scottish government was vaguely competent then maybe

But they have failed to manage the responsibility they have - ferries ,schools, wind power , so why give them more ?

Another point is that Scotland always had a Labour majority until 2007 when snp got one more seat. But because Labour have been a shambles for many years Scots who would normally vote Labour have been left with little choice but to vote snp. So they probably aren’t desperate for independence but won’t vote Cons and libs are a busted flush.

Do the oil workers give a monkeys about southern farmers

There have been tens of thousands of jobs cut in the oil industry since the last referendum though it rarely made news in the central belt. Streets that were once lined with oil companies in Aberdeen are now all ‘to let’ and oil companies have demolished empty but still very serviceable multi-storey office blocks rather than pay extortionate rates which where set before the oil crash. Aberdeen gets the lowest council settlement (it even had to been agreed that it would be topped up to 85% of the average settlement as it went so low). ‘Oil wealth’ is a thing of the past. Aberdeen was also declared the worst place in the UK to invest in property with a nearly 10% DROP in average house price since 2012; the next worst place was Inverclyde which recorded a 15% RISE.

So yes, I guess the redundant oil workers are rather envious of southern farmers.

I’m English. I live in England.
I can say, hand on heart, that I don’t know anyone who is desperate to hold on to the Union. Everyone is completely indifferent or actually welcomes the idea of Scottish independence.

I’m not fussed either way. I believe if the Scots are unhappy, they should be given the opportunity to leave though.

I believe Scotland could thrive as an independent country. We have a wealth of resources and access to cheap, renewable energy. As Churchill said

"Of all the small nations of this earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind."

However, I don't believe this SNP-led government - or indeed our Holyrood parliament - could run a bath never mind a country. I believe the damage done by our incompetent politicians has taken us back so far it would be very difficult to see us in any fit state to even think about independence. The circumstances were perfect to set the foundations and it's all been blown away by the shit show in Edinburgh. I'm actually quite angry about it.

I am British and very pro union. I think being a united force strengthens each of us. We should have close ties to our neighbours, for trade and opportunities.
I cannot blame the people of Scotland for feeling some of the English can be ignorant to their situation. I am shocked by the disinterest in the independence issue from some.
"Out of many,one"

You’ve fallen for the glossy brochure 🫢

Scot, living in Scotland.
This is exactly why there has been no real movement in the polls over the last few years. Everything is always anti-Westminster, anti-Tory (and therefore anti-English)
The positive case for how Scotland will function as an independent nation needs to be thoroughly laid out and demonstrated. The 55% who voted to remain need to be persuaded of the case by demonstrating how well Scotland is being run and how much more we could do going it alone.
That's never been done. It's always just the fault of Westminster, stoking a lot of anti- English sentiment.
It's not enough to have major constitutional change.
SNP have never produced the positive case, only a negative one

If they did vote for independence the moderately sane ones would be crossing the border in their thousands.

Businesses certainly would.

@Cazziebo the wealth of resources....Well the wind farm blocks was millions if not billions lost in potential money and opportunity for manufacturing development by the tendering process and was sold undervalue by the scottish govt....

CCUS still hasn't got off the ground yet due to cost but also finding a sufficient pipeline that can tolerate the extreme corrosive issues.....Scottish govt barrelled down this one without understanding corrosive nature of the product they were due to be pumping back so just said why cant we do X without proper development yet!

They have also said that all new oil and gas extraction should stop and no future licences granted so that's another energy source gone in a independent Scotland.

Not really sure what natural resources that leaves us left with to sell/make money from! Tidal power despite good efforts in the Orkney testing has not come to much.
Hydro energy we have a few old systems but they are very expensive to build for the small amount of power generation by the new one sanctioned in Glen Etieve! The ones we have were built quite a while ago (some in the 60s)

Not sure if I've missed anything given the move away from nuclear.

The onshore wind farms also undermine tourism.

Scottish, based in England but I divide my time between England and Scotland.
The entire narrative from Scotland via Sturgeon, Blackmore, Black, Nicholson and co is of division, relentless complaining, moaning, moral high ground, superiority complex, anti Westminster, loathing Tories which often comes across as anti English all while the SNP has presided over one disaster after another.
Too many to mention but let’s select ferries, GRR, education, Scottish NHS for starters.
I’m afraid I don’t regard the success (?) of Baby Boxes as an adequate track record for Scottish Independence.
I feel pretty depressed about the state of Scottish politics and genuinely concerned about Scotland’s future.

OP you stated you’re interested in stats but I think the greatest problem is the cultural shift under SNP rule.
A lack of critical thinking and a lack of understanding of basic economics reigns supreme among the SNP faithful.
A once proud nation now measures its success as the amount of free stuff it can dish out to the population while not understanding that someone actually has to pay for it.

Yup - I worked in hospitality in the Borders and the number of walkers who mentioned the proliferation of wind farms..... And not in a good way.

We both have financial services jobs that could hop to England with us overnight. Helps us sleep at night.

@silverclock222 apologies for stalking you on this thread. I need to ask you something, (nothing serious!) but the system won't let me PM you. Is there any chance you can PM me?

Thanks

Boiled

I wonder how much we pay to be governed twice - Westminster and local MPs.

A balanced report on Scottish drug deaths and why international comparisons are problematic at best.

https://theferret.scot/ffs-explains-scottish-drug-deaths-compare-uk-eu/

A lack of critical thinking and a lack of understanding of basic economics reigns supreme among the SNP faithful.

Totally agree. Just see how happy they were to swallow Swinney's magic money tree nonsense last time. Everything would be free, cheap, better in an independent Scotland. Based on wind and oil. Even though we're not going to extract any more oil, because Green. 🙄

And although the bot will probably be back shortly to reassure us all that some of her best friends are English, the hatred of the English runs deep in a lot of them. DH has an English accent and we have experienced this first hand. Sturgeon does nothing to condemn the loony fringe of her party support which is rabidly anti-English, the ones who stood on the Border and Central Station during the pandemic with their "fuck off back to England" banners.

I have several Scottish friends who have well-paid professional jobs and they are all quite open about the fact that they'd move to England if independence happens. They know that the SNP's case for independence is built on anti-English jingoism and little else and what catnip that is for a certain sector of the population. Yes, Scotland has potential in terms of green energy, but what's been done about it and could it make up for the huge shortfall in funding from Westminster when that generous tap is turned off? The SNP have failed time and again to give details about how Scotland would finance itself, what its currency would be, how it would go about meeting the EU's conditions for membership, and how long it would take.

Scotland currently gets £41 billion a year from Westminster. How is a future Scottish government going to come up with money like that? The North Sea oil and gas industry is long past the point where it could provide meaningful support to the Scottish economy - it's been in decline for years. And with many professional, high earners willing and able to relocate to England, who is going to bankroll an independent Scotland? It's clear that the SNP's plan is to swap Westminster for Brussels, but just saying that 'it would be for the government at that time to decide' how that would happen is absurd. An independent Scotland would never meet the criteria for joining the EU and even if it did, as others have already said, Spain would block it from joining.

I voted ‘no’ in the referendum and stand by that. I feel the SNP has become quite cult like and now that N S is stepping away and some of that control has gone it is unravelling. So many issues not addressed…. Ferries, money from NS husband, gender reform going too far (in my opinion), paying higher tax, NHS in dire straits , schools struggling etc If there is another referendum I would need to sell up and leave as all my money is in value of house and don’t have much savings - I think house prices would plummet which would be good for new buyers but not people in my situation. I hope the current SNP challenges re a new leader kicks any notion of independence far away for as long as possible!

I’m Scottish.

Name me a country that’s regretted independence.

It’s also really frustrating that people don’t seem to be able to distinguish between being pro independence and pro SNP. They are not the same thing, and as far as I and most people I know are concerned the SNP are purely a means to an end. Once we’ve attained independence as far as I’m concerned they can disappear in a puff of smoke.

It’s also really insulting to thing that Scotland isn’t capable of successful independence when we have so many resources at our disposal, the fact that Westminster is shitting bricks over it tells you enough. If we genuinely were this massive drain on the economy then they’d offload us asap. No country has ever regretted independence so why would Scotland be any different.