I am currently very pro Scottish Independence…

[Iheartscotland]

what do you think, objectively, are the best arguments for independence?

and/or

for remaining in the union?

Answers that are well reasoned and backed up with facts and figures would be great, but you know- go with whatever you feel.

Non cynical thinks the same tbh - I was trying to be polite.

Not wanting to feed the SNP bot situation 😉but there is only one route really. Run the country well and within budget and it would be just the final transfer of power to a fully functioning, well run country, it would just make sense. The current administration have built this nasty horrible split which didn't exist in this bitter format prior to them coming to power.

I'm not ideologically opposed to independence, but at the moment there is better safety in all things in bigger numbers and having close and friendly allies. Look at Covid ( I disagree with virtually everything done it's name but that's an argument for another day) but from a monetary point of view, could Scotland have provided the same support if independent now?

I have no beef with any other parts of the UK.

@Holyroodhell , absolutely nothing could change your mind ever? Doesn’t even have to be realistic- anything at all

What is a woman, @Iheartscotland ?

Well top marks for attempts at politeness @BigBoysDontCry we like that 😀

Within budget, I understand, but what else would be different if the country was being run well? Compared to the rest of the UK or would it have to be far better than that to start considering independence.

Adult human female- but nice try 😉

Agree 100%. Amazing that duch a simple question ties senior politicians in knots.

It was no in 2014 and it's still no. To be frank I'm sick of hearing about it.

Yes it’s bizarre, but answering that question has destroyed many a career within and beyond politics, so I don’t completely blame people for pussyfooting around it. Symptomatic of a wider issue around squabbling over words when the world is on fire but that’s probably a discussion for another thread

@mickeysmug what would ever change it to yes? If anything?

I am British. British to my fingertips. Immensely proud. Welsh great grandfather, Irish grandfather, married to a Lancastrian. It’s a wonderful, diverse, beautiful country with many amazing people and places. I loathe petty, small minded nationalism here in Scotland.

Growing up in the eighties with xenophobic classmates who ‘hated the fucking English’ even though they had never so much as left Perthshire to meet one. The real head-banging ‘fuck off back to England’ types.

And the endless lies spouted by in the nationalist cause about how successful Scotland will be as a nation. It’s laughable and patronising in equal measure. Do they really think Scot’s are daft enough to think we don’t get £40bn-ish a year from rUK?

if we had proper politicians who ran the country properly, charged the ‘fuck off back to England’ types with hate crimes, somehow get the economy into such a good shape that entry to the EU would actually be a feasible prospect…then I’d still be a no voter.

What would have to change to make you pro Indy @maranella?

I'd need to be convinced that Scotland could be financially self-sufficient and I haven't seen anything that convinces me of that so far. It's all very well saying: 'We'll be a high tax, high benefits society like certain Scandinavian countries and we'll be members of the EU', but where is the detailed plan setting out how that would be achieved? Surely, if Brexit has shown us anything, it's that empty promises aren't worth the paper (or the bus) they're written on.

So if I were a Scot being given the choice of independence now I'd need to know:

• that there is a coherent plan for how the nation would support itself, particularly in those early years when it would be on its own, no UK or EU to prop up its finances;
• that the question of which currency the it would use and how its value would be determined had been answered;
• that the policies proposed weren't going to cause a mass exodus of many of the better paid citizens of the newly independent nation, just leaving the poor and those without choices behind;
• that the bar for independence wouldn't just be 50% - it would be something much higher like 70% so that an overwhelming majority of citizens were supportive;
• that an independent Scotland would offer it's citizens something different and something better than what they're getting as part of the UK. Do I feel gladness in my heart that the UK got its 'sovereignty' back from the EU? No, it means nothing to me, since we've lost so much. We're poorer and we've lost free movement and the right to live and work in 27 other nations - so how is that better? If I were a Scot I'd need to feel I was gaining something that was actually going to make a material and positive difference to my life. Independence in and of itself is meaningless is your standard of living goes down as a result.

to be pro indy would require a lot but I think if a new referendum was postponed for 10-15 years and in that 10-15 years they worked really hard to make scotland work using only as much money as they would feasibly get being independent,
I think all referendums both Scottish and Brexit or not should require a great deal more than 50% +1 of people that vote, the status quo stays unless a very very clear majority for change it is not clear if the vote is 49/51% or indeed 51/49
A commitment that once independent the debate about being republic or a monarchy would be another referendum as would being in or out of the EU
Proof that country can run well

acknowledge that just like England tends to be London and home counties centric, Scotland tends to be Edinburgh and Glasgow centric, A democracy is proportional to population, so Glasgow has loads more MSP's than the Highlands, and England has more MP's than Scotland it is fair that there is one MP per roughly 100,000 people
5 million people can't have same number of MP's as 55 million as it makes one vote in one place worth 11 votes elsewhere which is fundamentally unfair

Education needs to improve 20 years ago Scotland did well compared to England now in Maths and English it is behind, free tuition at university I agree with but not when Scottish students can't get a place with good results but there are still places on the same course for people form elsewhere paying good money. UK as a whole as been a leader in innovation and we should harness that as sometimes I think entrepreneurship and excelling is seen as getting above yourself, we need to cultivate educationally and achievement confidence without arrogance

NHS needs to work health outcomes currently are some of the worst in Europe
Economy needs to work no silly give aways like baby boxes to the middle class
we need to grow industries based on our natural resources and talents and that includes oil and gas as well as tech, tweed , fishing, we have more fresh water than we need, tourism and service industries are not the answer to all things, we need some industry too. we have all the resources to be completely self sufficient in energy.
we do not have the weather or agricultural farmland to be self sufficient in food but we could do better

Delivering services over a large area rurally costs more than delivering the same services in an urban area but all people need to have equal access regardless of where they live
There is nothing wrong with telling people to take responsibility for their own health etc but people need freedom not a nanny state if we can't make decisions without a nanny state to tell us we are not ready to be independent, no more ill thought out policies liked named person and Gender recognition without really thinking about issues

above all we need honesty about what can and can't be afforded and what could be afforded if people paid more tax or worked differently productivity can be increased without increasing hours worked

too many polticians see politics and Holyrood ( and Westminsiter) like a massive chess game where winning against oppostion with smart moves is seen as the point of it all while actually these poltical game is irrelevant, which is why people think that basically all politicians are the same dishonest crooks just like pawns in chess the colour of the pawns changes but they are still pawns and even when the queen changes it is just another queen of a different colour but the game continues in RL no-one cares who wins at Prime or First Ministers question time it is just a prize for the debating society what matters is how this translates outside, most people really want a decent job with a reasonable pension, a decent house and decent school for their kids and a decent health service when they are ill and a safety net if it goes pear shaped, most other things are just decor and icing on a cake nice to have but unessential

on a silly note if they could sort the midges and excess rain on the west coast !!!!

All of the stuff around the wording of the question is so interesting. Originally the question proposed was "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?" And the Electoral Commission rejected that as unfair - the phrase "do you agree" was held to be very biased. If people aren't sure, they are going to tend to agree than disagree.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20512743

The question "should Scotland be an independent country" was approved as it's less loaded and leading. There are people who spend their whole careers studying this stuff. Wording is important.

OMG I’d forgotten about the named person fiasco - talk about a Nanny state - how can anyone think that was a good idea.

i think it’s the problem of small countries not being able to find enough intelligent people to run the gov so you get the baby box, named person, rapists in women’s prisons etc nonsense.
Uninvestigated funding issues and I don’t know where the OP lives but I am in rural Scotland and we are looking a bit like a third world country with potholed roads, dead town centres and shambolic hospitals.

Generally, I would like the curriculum to become a lot more diverse in terms of perspectives and UK cultures. England and English history is seen as the norm, the central story of the UK,

I also have to take issue with this drawn on my own education and that of my kids. I was never taught anything about the Tudors, the English Civil War, the Norman Conquest. Primary school history was vikings, Mary Queen of Scots, Robert the Bruce, Bonnie Prince Charlie. Secondary school history we looked at 19th and 20th century history - Empire, WW1/2.

My own kids did history topics in Primary - again nothing "English". Vikings, Jacobites, Wars of Independence/Declaration of Arbroath. Romans (we are very close to the Antonine Wall). Glasgow's role as the second city of the Empire. Two out of my 3 did Nat 5 and Higher History and again there is a huge emphasis on Scottish history or Scotland's role in larger conflicts like WW1. Same in English - Scottish authors, poets, plays.

I would agree Scottish history is the norm in Scottish schools
bit of iron age in related to Callanish stones/ orkney the roman vikings
robert the bruce Scottish wars of independence Arbroath mary Queen of Scots then nothing until industrial revolution then WWI and WWII where history is similar bombing on the Clyde very similar to bombing in London and Coventry etc also plemty of Scottish literature too

I find your scottish education/culture and history statement a bit strange OP.....

I grew up in England and did history GCSE too.
We didn't cover scottish history in the same detail that you do in Scotland but then I doubt in Scotland you covered aspects of English history in the same depth.
We did however cover Mary Queen of Scots, James VI/I, witch hunts at GCSE level which included the scottish ones, historic migrations including the highland clearances and the Romans and Handrians wall/the celts.

In English literature we did famous poetry which did include a poem by Robert Burns as well as other poetry such as Byron.

School systems do change around a bit so that questions change etc but I find it bizarre that you seem to be under the impression that nothing relating to Scotland is taught in English schools! It's simple not the case. It's not a wide a part of the syllabus but then I doubt English or Welsh history is a big part of the Scottish syllabus on the same vein.

@feellikeanalien good question regarding Labour. It’s really hard to know isn’t it? I think if Starmer brought in major reform such as proportional representation and greater devolution to the regions including Scotland it might put the Indy campaign on the back burner. If Labour get in and continue to try to appease the right of Labour and the left-centre of the conservative voters he might be tempted to
appear “tough on Scotland” I think it will prove to pro-Indy people that there’s no hope of change being attached to the UK. That’s how I would feel about it. Either way I think it will be better for everyone if they get in so let hope it happens but there’s a fair chance it could set back the independence campaign

Uk labour's latest manifesto with the green powerhouse, focus on the nhs stuff does sound somewhat appealing and in line with Scottish values but labour are in a tricky position - the SNP have been able to enact some good left of centre policies like Scottish child payment due to the extra funding they have from the UK and the SNP have already raised taxes here too.

Hard to see a fundable policy gap that uk labour or Scottish labour could run on to appeal to Scottish voters. The govt spending situation is in for a bad few years across the uk whoever is in power.

Agree a tough on Scotland line is one I hope Starmer avoids!

Fair enough you’re probably right about education then, so I’m not sure how you would best to do it but I think one way or another the countries of the UK would have to have better understanding of each other’s culture for me to change my stance. I think that’s really important for social cohesion

What greater devolution are you looking for for Scotland @Iheartscotland ?

Good question, taxation would be the big one, benefits and employment law. I would like Scotland to have more of a say in where the nukes are kept, and energy of course.

I think Scotland should be able to have a significant power of veto over big decisions that affect us directly as a country, e.g. the decision to have the brexit referendum. Essentially, the devolved nations should play an important role in the UK checks and balances for the UK.

I think Scotland and the other nations/regions should have a significant say in the constitution which should be written down

The problem with Scotland getting more power over raising and keeping its own taxes is that if it got these powers the Barnett formula would be adjusted accordingly and Scotland would end up with less cash cause they wouldn’t get the consequentials of the vast tax raised by the city of London.

If pro union parties could sort the midges- I’d happily wrap myself in the union flag 😂
Thanks for the detailed response, v. interesting, most of these I would agree should be what we’re all aiming for, some I would quibble with, but will have to think about them all a bit more.
I feel like the preferred solution for pro-union people might be an independent Scotland run by unionists, but perhaps that way madness lies

That seems mostly very reasonable and achievable I would have thought. The offer definitely needs to be better than what’s there already. So depressing hearing Rishi Sunak how lucky Northern Ireland are and how they’ll be the envy of the world with their unique trading position, having access to both the EU and the UK. Just like the whole of the UK used to have not so long ago.

I think the desire for a decisive referendum with a minimum vote 70% is a nice idea in theory but realistically there would be riots if 69% voted to leave the union and we ended up staying in. Think about how outraged you’d be if that requirement was made in the opposite direction.