Can Scottish politics be salvaged?

[SickofHolyrood]

I’m coming increasingly to the conclusion that Scottish politics has descended down a rabbit hole and I’m wondering whether it will ever emerge again to govern properly.

We pay eye-watering taxes compared to the rest of the UK and we get £2k more in spending than raised in taxes for every man woman and child, but seem to get very little to show for it.

Schooling started disappearing down the drain about 10 years ago, and withdrawing ourselves from the PISA etc stats just shows what we all know - standards are in complete free fall. My kids seem to have a succession of supply teachers, and yet there are thousands of teachers unable to secure permanent positions.

My kids aren’t deprived enough to have a reasonable chance of getting into a suitable Scottish university course, despite more than meeting the entry requirements. If they were English it would be a formality.

Despite much higher funding the Scottish NHS is only marginally better than the English NHS. CAMHS waiting lists are criminal.

The drugs death stats are horrifying and getting exponentially worse all the time.

The SNP seem to be openly corrupt - stealing £600k from their own supporters, not spending the COVID 19 recovery money on recovery from covid 19, and now not letting the auditor general know what has happened to Scotland reserves.

The SNP seem to be totally economically illiterate, best illustrated by the decision to spend millions of pound propping up a handful of Scottish jobs building ferry’s that are still not finished, leaving island communities to pick up the pieces.

The SNP spending an inordinate amount of time hankering for an independence referendum that polling shows no one wants and they would lose, after promising to respect the result of the 2014 referendum.

And the whole GRC situation makes me think that we are being run by some sort of weird q-anon cult. What part of trans women are not women don’t they understand? What part of women wanting women only spaces don’t then understand? It’s not bigoted to want
to keep safeguarding protections of penises out of female spaces. I just don’t get it.

Yes, the Tories are horrendous. No question about it, but I am 100% confident that the whole corrupt lot of them will be flushed down the loo at the next general election never to see power again for the next 100 years. But I can see the SNP shambles never ending, due to the constant lies of sunlit uplands to the not very clever gullible types who believe their nonsense. Can anyone see any light in the Holyrood tunnel at all?

I think the last thing Scotland needs is independence. I honestly think if you ask the average Scot what they think about the SNP currently they would be entirely negative.

Honestly, no I don't see a way out. I was all for devolution in the beginning, but the way the SNP have abused their power, fucked everything up royally, and distorted Scottish politics makes me think that if Holyrood was closed down we might actually be better off. The weaknesses of the system, which was set up to administrate for things like health and education not run an independent country, are laid bare by the GRR disgrace. Stuffing committees with people already on the side you support; hearing only from witnesses that say what you want to hear; getting rid of dissenters so that you're effectively an echo chamber, and apparently no means of any of the resulting bad law being blocked except by the courts. Or the UK govt if you stray into reserved matters as with the GRR, and frankly, thank fuck for that.

I don't see the SNP going anywhere though - they have captured all the major organisations, the press seem terrified of upsetting them, and they have an army of cybernats to intimidate people who speak out. Too many people are taken in by their narrative and promises of independence (which ironically they won't get with the SNP anyway).

Sadly am same, we talk more and more frequently of leaving Scotland and heading for the South.
SNP is going to continue to hike taxes (don't agree you want WORKHOUSES and people to DIE!) Expect am not seeing any benefit to people in my local area of where this money is going.

Scot living in England past 5 years. I think Holyrood is woefully lacking in talent across the whole Party system. You could say that about Westminster as well. Who let Maggie Chapman and the likes through ffs? I don't think Scotland would benefit from Independent sadly. I used to be in favour but I dread to think what would happen with all this gender ideology happening. I hope Labour is watching the slow disintegration of the SNP carefully because of this and learning from it. I doubt it though. I could never vote Tory and the country needs to get rid of the Tories . We need serious investment in our public services; social care, health , education, the lot. Unfortunately, that will require taxation to match and some folk just will not vote for that. I want to come back to Scotland in a year or two but I am feart for my daughter and the safety of women. What a state of affairs!

If that is true then they will lose the next election and be miles behind in the opinion polls. But they are miles ahead in every poll and it seems likely to win the next election.

In the same way that the Tories are often miles behind and yet still win elections.

I guess we’re going to have to see how it plays out. I certainly think we are stronger as a Union but I also completely understand that history is playing it’s part when it comes to feelings.

I have been a life long supporter of independence - and still am - and a long term SNP member. But I've had enough. The policies being churned out are nonsensical, unworkable (to those of us who have to implement them) and in some scenarios, damaging.

We need a legitimate and credible third option other than the Tories and SNP. where are labour and the Lib Dems?

I would love to understand more about the inner workings of the Scot Gov, how the civil servants, who I presume draft the legislation, go about it. I'm not sure how much of the detail of these non workable laws are down to civil servants or the MSPs. Probably a bit of both, but many of the staff have decades of experience of working in govt.

Yes, the Tories are horrendous. No question about it, but I am 100% confident that the whole corrupt lot of them will be flushed down the loo at the next general election never to see power again for the next 100 years

I wouldn’t be so confident or so happy if they were. They are the only ones not to whip to vote for GRR and the only party to principally stand against it. We are lucky they used s35. But more generally, labour aren’t exactly shining at the moment and are also caught up in the Gender rubbish. The Tories have a lot of support in England and a not insignificant amount of support in Scotland. But toxic leftist social media means Tory voters keep their heads down. I sit in the centre and think regular change is necessary; more than two terms of any party is bad at any level of government. I wish I could vote labour next election but I can’t due to their capture on gender ideology.

more importantly the mess in Scotland shows the importance of a strong opposition, one that actually threatens to take power. It also shows the importance of internal dissent - that you must not be able to assume your MSPs/MPs will vote with you, you must have strong arguments for every law you propose and be prepared to debate them. If the Tories were wiped out then there would be no one to hold labour to account and it wouldn’t just be a Holyrood that became a basket case.

Agree OP. It's astonishing how bad things have become.

Could you imagine if we were actually independent?! There have been so many times I've been thankful that we voted no.

Scotland is in an utter state as it is without adding the shock of independence on top.

I'm not sure how it can be fixed.

Surely the current shut show will turn lots of people away from independence

The Scottish Tories seem like adults in a high school (admittedly having just watched the gender debates), while the rest of them are caricatures of teenagers. Nicola Sturgeon is a very convincing liar, so much so that if Douglas Ross challenges her, you can see him doubting himself by her convincing replies. Then when he’s proved right several days later, it gets no publicity.
I think Russell Findlay has come across extremely well and could see him as a potential First Minister in the future, but out of the SNP MSPs there is no one really who seems to have the intelligence for the top dog. They’ve been shoo-ins on the independence cause, with no need to do anything but follow the party line.

We need a legitimate and credible third option other than the Tories and SNP. where are labour and the Lib Dems?

I agree with this. Every party in Scotland has allowed the independence referendum question to dominate politics to the extent that most people who support a referendum and independence vote SNP. Whereas most people who don't support an independence referendum are split across Tory, Labour and LibDem. Although according to polls, around 40% of Labour supporters also support independence.

When there was the last Labour leadership change, I believe Monica Lennon in her bid tried to change the narrative by saying that to support another referendum but to be against independence would be a better stance. However this was unacceptable, so the status quo remains.

In both FPTP and PR elections the SNP dominate because people vote for them in a way that gives them a majority of MPs and a dominance of MSPs. They are highest in polls and this is reflected in results. For anyone to say they are miles behind in polls, or that the average Scot isn't voting for them, this is rubbish. Just under half the voting electorate vote for them and until the other parties get their acts together to convince voters they're a credible alternative, they'll continue to succeed. I think it's unhealthy to not have a credible opposition who provide a real challenge, but that's up to other parties to try and change, and they seem just as bound to fighting independence at all costs as the SNP are bound to fighting for it.

As for Douglas Ross, the man's a halfwit.

Gold paw - I’m assuming you want independence, but surely you must see that the quality of MSPs is incredibly poor. If we can get a higher calibre of politicaians then maybe independence wouldn’t terrify me as much as it does currently.

Why are you assuming that? Genuine question.

The overall calibre of UK politics is pretty poor these days, not just Scottish politics.

Sorry Goldpaw, just reread your post and realise it was fairly neutral.

If the Scottish Labour Party could get their bloody act together there might be some chance of getting rid of the SNP, but till then we’re stuck with them. I’ve never felt visceral rage like I do when Sturgeon’s pus appears on the tv
They’ve come up with this gender recognition crap which which has turned off a lot of their loyal supporters, so I live in hope, but Labour really need to up their game

No worries. I am fairly neutral. I don't think anyone covers themselves in glory really. I think independence is Scotland's Brexit in that it feels like the only issue and has polarised politics in the same way as Brexit has done.

Many other issues don't get proper debate because each party is so welded to opposing those who are on the other side of the independence debate. It's all so unhealthy.

However, I do stand by my belief that Douglas Ross is dim. The reason he looks so doubtful about himself is that he can barely keep up. Nicola Sturgeon runs rings round him. And I agree with you, overall the calibre is poor, with a few exceptions.

Do you think Labour would have been better with Monica Lennon at the helm? She wanted the party to support an independence referendum but to be against independence. I thought that might have taken a bit of the fire away from the debate, and shift it a little away from yes v. no.

I totally agree they need to up their game. Their lack of proper opposition is really frustrating. They could really be providing a viable alternative to the SNP.

The bottle return scheme is going to be an expensive fiasco come August. It might help accelerate NSs Denise, unfortunately I'm not sure who's waiting in the wings.

As long as the constitution divides us then it's all fucked.

We are stuck in a one-party state and it doesn't made how bad the SNP are the Indy lit will vote for them.

Unionist vote splits.

Nothing changes.

Demise not Denise

Honestly I don't understand the idea that the SNP want to leave the uk so they can control their affairs but then want to join the European Union! Makes no sense. The EU won't have them anyway as they have too many groups within states wanting independence.

Sturgeon is unhinged with this one idea and will literally say or do anything to get it including flirting with the youngsters over trans issues and lowering the voting age to 16 and sacrifice women on doing do.

Maddness

A stronger Labour would just make things worse. We need to get behind a single unionist party to keep the snp numbers down, and until the gender politics is sorted safely then Labour is too big a risk.

I agree.
Nothing changes except more taxes.