Can Scottish politics be salvaged?

[SickofHolyrood]

I’m coming increasingly to the conclusion that Scottish politics has descended down a rabbit hole and I’m wondering whether it will ever emerge again to govern properly.

We pay eye-watering taxes compared to the rest of the UK and we get £2k more in spending than raised in taxes for every man woman and child, but seem to get very little to show for it.

Schooling started disappearing down the drain about 10 years ago, and withdrawing ourselves from the PISA etc stats just shows what we all know - standards are in complete free fall. My kids seem to have a succession of supply teachers, and yet there are thousands of teachers unable to secure permanent positions.

My kids aren’t deprived enough to have a reasonable chance of getting into a suitable Scottish university course, despite more than meeting the entry requirements. If they were English it would be a formality.

Despite much higher funding the Scottish NHS is only marginally better than the English NHS. CAMHS waiting lists are criminal.

The drugs death stats are horrifying and getting exponentially worse all the time.

The SNP seem to be openly corrupt - stealing £600k from their own supporters, not spending the COVID 19 recovery money on recovery from covid 19, and now not letting the auditor general know what has happened to Scotland reserves.

The SNP seem to be totally economically illiterate, best illustrated by the decision to spend millions of pound propping up a handful of Scottish jobs building ferry’s that are still not finished, leaving island communities to pick up the pieces.

The SNP spending an inordinate amount of time hankering for an independence referendum that polling shows no one wants and they would lose, after promising to respect the result of the 2014 referendum.

And the whole GRC situation makes me think that we are being run by some sort of weird q-anon cult. What part of trans women are not women don’t they understand? What part of women wanting women only spaces don’t then understand? It’s not bigoted to want
to keep safeguarding protections of penises out of female spaces. I just don’t get it.

Yes, the Tories are horrendous. No question about it, but I am 100% confident that the whole corrupt lot of them will be flushed down the loo at the next general election never to see power again for the next 100 years. But I can see the SNP shambles never ending, due to the constant lies of sunlit uplands to the not very clever gullible types who believe their nonsense. Can anyone see any light in the Holyrood tunnel at all?

beachcitygirl clearly thinks locking vulnerable women in a cell with a male serial rapist is all hunky dory. And that poor transwomen butcher so vulnerable that they were forced to abduct an 11 year old girl? Nothing to see here...

It’s not trans phobic to want to protect the rights of females.

btw - beach city girl lives in Plymouth…

No I don't live in Plymouth Sorry to bust your Ba.

My most insincere apologies. I recognise your name as I saw you in a thread yesterday and I’d originally thought you were Hebridean but you went on to talk about living near Plymouth.

Tbf, even Gretna’s not overly near Plymouth.

Actually no I don't.

I don't think trans people if guilty of sexual crimes should be housed in the female estate.
The correct decision was made in the case of the rapist Bryson.

In scotland there are 15 trans people in custody.
(0.2% of the prison population overall)

Following risk assesment 9 of them were held in the estate matching their gender assigned at birth, and 6 in the estate matching their transitioned gender.

It is right that this should be decided on an individualised risk assessment basis by those qualified to make these types of decisions.

When someone is held to custody by the state. The state has a responsibility to others in the prison estate & to the prisoner.

For example, a trans woman transitioned for 20 years, who is in prison for a non-violent offence like financial fraud, might pose no risk to other women in custody, but be at significant risk herself if accommodated on the male estate.

A blanket rule people in custody are accommodated would be wrong.

The assessment of where a trans person in custody is held does not depend on whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate (GRC).

The risk assessment policy applies to all trans people in custody, with or without GRCs. That means that the changes to the process for applying for a GRC, overwhelmingly agreed by the Scottish Parliament in December, would have no effect on the Scottish Prison Service’s policy on this, and no effect on where trans people in custody are housed.

In a community of any size, there will be some people who commit appalling crimes – that does not and should not reflect on the majority of that community.
It is bigoted to suggest otherwise.

Ps all trans people in the prison estate in uk are housed under existing uk law.

Not me. Not in a thread like that & don't live anywhere near there & never have.

It is right that this should be decided on an individualised risk assessment basis by those qualified to make these types of decisions.

@beachcitygirl - What about Tiffany Scott: considered so dangerous she can never be released, who stalked young girls and has assaulted female prison officers, bites open her veins to spray blood etc. She's one of Scotland's most dangerous violent prisoners, but was risk assessed as safe to go into a womens prison.

You ok with that?

I know you're just a bigot looking for a cheap gotcha moment but I've time to kill so I'll bite.

Prison does sometimes have violent people you know. Violent, traumatised or plain evil people.

The main thing with all of this that grates for me & worries me is that prison should be safe for everyone.
No one should be attacked,assaulted, raped etc in any prison. We take away their liberty & have a responsibility to keep them safe.
There is cctv & guards. There should be safety i. Prison. That takes more guards & more monitoring m, it takes better prisons, different systems, single rooms & dignity for prisoners & safety for guards.

Every single act of violence in any prison should be prosecuted with full force of the law.

That takes money, safer less full prisons, it takes the political will to spend money on prisons and alternative solutions.

Most women shouldn't be in prison. Lots of them in for fines, prostitution, trauma based behaviour. Women prisoners are sexually assaulted & attacked by other prisoners all too often.

Most male prisons are awash with violence, rape & drugs. Not ok either.

There is zero political will to spend money making prison nicer. Voters & daily Mail readers would gave such a politician for breakfast.

It's past time that the judiciary stopping having a misogynistic attitude when they sentence women & society needs to look at why we imprison people & the patterns around criminality. We need to look at alternatives to prison except in most serious cases, then prisons wouldn't be so overcrowded & dangerous.

So in answer, I'm not aware of why Scott was housed in female estate under existing uk law but see above for my thoughts.

What I won't do is tar a whole community with the behaviour of a tiny amount.
What I also won't do is have much time for those who never previously gave a damm about prisons.

Ah, the SPS's 'robust risk assessment' which has resulted in the current situation of the following being placed in the female prison estate -

• Double rapist (removed from the female prison estate only after public outcry)
• Murderer who identifies as a baby. In a prison with a mother and baby unit.
• Murderer who 'had sex' with female inmates.
• Paedophile housed in a women's prison with a mother and baby unit who was moved into a female prison after attacking another male in a male prison.

In addition, the two rapists who are currently demanding to be moved into women's prisons.

The 'robust risk assessments' which form part of the SPS's policy which was advised almost solely by the Scottisn Trans Alliance and for which no women's organisations or female inmates were consulted.

And of course, the amount of prisoners who have Sudden Onset Prison Associated Gender Disphoria Disorder and those who (utterly co-incidently) decide to revert to their former gender the instant they are released from prison.

@Waitwhat23 sure.

Sure what?

Aw. I'd been wondering how long it would be for one of the Nicola sycophants to be brave enough to appear. 😂😂😂

I know you're just a bigot looking for a cheap gotcha moment

You know that, do you? You know me...? What do you mean by a gotcha moment? Is that the point it dawns on you that your pompously expressed logic can't be sustained to encompass all cases reasonably.

Prison does sometimes have violent people you know.

Really? You don't say.

The main thing with all of this that grates for me & worries me is that prison should be safe for everyone.

Gosh. Well, you obviously aspire to a much higher standard than us lesser mortals who are quite happy for prisons to be unsafe horrific places for prisoners.

So in answer, I'm not aware of why Scott was housed in female estate under existing uk law but see above for my thoughts.

Ah, thanks for the extensive lecture you deigned to share while you had time to kill. But at last the answer to the question. Which... isn't an answer to the question (funny that). And odd that the direction to your thoughts / lecture has no bearing on the answer to a very simple question either.

Oh ... I forgot ... you won't deign to stoop to a "gotcha moment".

What I won't do is tar a whole community with the behaviour of a tiny amount.

Where have people been talking about the 'whole community' in any of these posts?

What I also won't do is have much time for those who never previously gave a damm about prisons.

Now this made me laugh. Again the all-knowing insights into posters beyond the screen.

How old are you? Because you honestly sound like you need to grow up. This kind of post will one day be excruciatingly mortifying for you.

And by the way, lecture aside, dancing around the question aside ... we can still see you, you silly billy.

I guess it took head office a wee while to get their talking points together to feed out to the faithful try and salvage something from this shitshow. 😂😂

@beachcitygirl

I think the ex Governor of Greenock prison knows what she is talking about.

www.tiktok.com/@silviotattisconie/video/7194512436970409221

I mean, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are currently looking at the various sources which evidence the points I've made in order to put together your robust and evidence based rebuttal so just to make it easier for you, here's links to all the points I made -

twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1618308946523213824?s=20&t=Th6jZO-HyFJMPnioT5oNSA

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/04/06/the-sps-review-on-trans-prisoners-a-chance-to-get-policy-making-in-scottish-prisons-back-on-track/

‘We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’ - James Morton, Scottish Trans Alliance

archive.ph/2022.10.04-232359/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions-pftqbbhg6

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252 (also reported in the Times)

Could we please agree that thinking female only spaces should be reserved for biological females is not bigoted? It’s not about keeping people out, it’s about keeping the people these spaces were meant for - for safety reasons - safe. And that can never include a penis.

I totally agree.

@beabeachcitygirl I suggest you go do your reading on English rules before spouting that England do exactly the same. An extract from gov.uk website below......

On October 4 2022 the Justice Secretary announced plans to reform our policy on the allocation of transgender prisoners. Under the reforms, transgender women with male genitalia, or those who have been convicted of a sexual offence, should no longer be held in the general women’s estate.

This will create a strong presumption, but allow for exemptions to be considered by Ministers on a case-by-case basis – though only the most truly exceptional cases will be considered.

So whilst the Scottish govt/Scottish prison service is taking the stance that because a male prisoner says they are a woman they should be allowed to be housed in a female prison the English position is in fact very different.

Very well put! It's like it's not known how to address the actual massive issue so will just call everyone concerned a bigot!

What do you mean about your kids university places OP out of curiosity? Isn’t it free for all Scots?

I’m English and live in England but YANBU. Despite an ‘enlightened’ modern government Scotland seems to be faring worse than ever, and this obsession with ‘independence at all costs’ is tiresome and I don’t even live there!

🥱

Anyone else noticed the males right activists have suddenly pretended to be concerned about why women are even in prison like that makes them being locked up with a male rapist okay?

It's been described as the SPS's policy being 'ahead of the law' - implementing self id before the event i.e. the question of GRC or not GRC wasn't applicable because it was self id anyway in Scottish prisons. When people say 'oh, the GRR Bill doesn't make any difference', what they fail to point out is that self id was already, shamefully, in place. The massively overdue updating of the policy would have been influenced by the introduction of self id and would have cemented the current policy. Thankfully, the recent revelations have shone a very bright light on SPS policy, which is directly overseen by the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans. The Scottish Government really can't claim that they aren't involved in the implementation of the current policy.

Whereas in English prisons up until the decision cited above, whether or not a prisoner held a GRC was a relevant consideration.

Those drawing up these policies never considered the impact on women. It was as if women aren’t sentient beings with human rights of our own. I don’t care if a man has committed fraud, women should not be expected to shower naked beside him to make him feel better. The majority of women in prison have experience male violence, including sexual violence, they have a right to be kept safe from men and away from male gaze. They have a right to privacy and dignity.

In any case, the so-called ‘robust risk assessment’ carried out by the SPS does NOT consider the risk to, or impact on, women. It only considers the risk to the male prisoner who wants access to women.

Common misconception in England.

There are free places but it's heavily capped per year on how many Scottish students they will fund. The universities also have a cap on how many Scottish students they will take (which is less then the course limits)
So they then have a rating system based on different factors including postcodes from the most deprived areas. Hence some university courses have no Scottish students who haven't scored on a risk/deprivation criteria as found out by journalists with Edinburgh University