Can Scottish politics be salvaged?

[SickofHolyrood]

I’m coming increasingly to the conclusion that Scottish politics has descended down a rabbit hole and I’m wondering whether it will ever emerge again to govern properly.

We pay eye-watering taxes compared to the rest of the UK and we get £2k more in spending than raised in taxes for every man woman and child, but seem to get very little to show for it.

Schooling started disappearing down the drain about 10 years ago, and withdrawing ourselves from the PISA etc stats just shows what we all know - standards are in complete free fall. My kids seem to have a succession of supply teachers, and yet there are thousands of teachers unable to secure permanent positions.

My kids aren’t deprived enough to have a reasonable chance of getting into a suitable Scottish university course, despite more than meeting the entry requirements. If they were English it would be a formality.

Despite much higher funding the Scottish NHS is only marginally better than the English NHS. CAMHS waiting lists are criminal.

The drugs death stats are horrifying and getting exponentially worse all the time.

The SNP seem to be openly corrupt - stealing £600k from their own supporters, not spending the COVID 19 recovery money on recovery from covid 19, and now not letting the auditor general know what has happened to Scotland reserves.

The SNP seem to be totally economically illiterate, best illustrated by the decision to spend millions of pound propping up a handful of Scottish jobs building ferry’s that are still not finished, leaving island communities to pick up the pieces.

The SNP spending an inordinate amount of time hankering for an independence referendum that polling shows no one wants and they would lose, after promising to respect the result of the 2014 referendum.

And the whole GRC situation makes me think that we are being run by some sort of weird q-anon cult. What part of trans women are not women don’t they understand? What part of women wanting women only spaces don’t then understand? It’s not bigoted to want
to keep safeguarding protections of penises out of female spaces. I just don’t get it.

Yes, the Tories are horrendous. No question about it, but I am 100% confident that the whole corrupt lot of them will be flushed down the loo at the next general election never to see power again for the next 100 years. But I can see the SNP shambles never ending, due to the constant lies of sunlit uplands to the not very clever gullible types who believe their nonsense. Can anyone see any light in the Holyrood tunnel at all?

One problem for them is if they do they are accused of ignoring the Scottish Parliament and Sturgeon complains of them meddling in Scottish affairs. Same thing would happen with a labour government and the SNP too.

I don't know much about Douglas Ross. He's a Tory; I tend to ignore them. But he earned a degree of respect from me when he referred to Isla Bryson as "that beast" in parliament. No tippy-toeing around delicate sensibilities there.

Describing independence as Scotland's Brexit is a good way of putting it (@Goldpaw).

It would be good if, learning from that, a future referendum was genuinely advisory, and a final decision to split could be put to the people AFTER negotiations and a deal was done. So we vote on what Independence would actually look like, knowing what the actual costs / benefits will be.

But that will never happen as the SNP know a confirmatory referendum is unlikely to pass. A confirmatory brexit one wouldn't have..- if only Cameron had had the brains to set it up like that.

Totally agree with this.

And that, in a nutshell, is why I won't vote for Independence. If they genuinely believed they could achieve a fantastic deal with no hardship and a million benefits, they would confidently agree to a confirmatory referendum. Everyone would vote for proven benefits. The fact that they won't speaks volumes ...

That will never happen. Even if a Scottish Government wanted to there is zero chance that the UK government would agree to it. Like Brexit, you have to decide to do it and then work out the details later.

@Aaron95 Scotland met the Eu criteria for the very reason it is a member of the UK. If we become independent we would be a new nation starting from scratch and would need to establish our own new institutions that Eu membership requires… including a central bank. Possible of course but it will take years … not counting several years to “divorce “ ourselves from the UK.

As a new EU entrant Scotland would have to have a much lower debt than it currently does, and agree to work towards adopting the euro. Scotland cannot lower its debt on independence because it would have lost 15% of its budget when it loses the Barnett formula. And it will have to pay more to service its debts because as a new country, its debts look much riskier and so they will get charged a much h higher interest to borrow. These are just some of the reasons why Scotland will definitely be an economic basket case for some years after independence. Anyone that thinks otherwise needs their head examining for signs of brainwashing.

Agreed. But Scotland does already meet all the other criteria which are to do with deomocracy, human rights, legal system, legislative alignment etc.

I think Nicola Sturgeon's days are numbered. But that could be wishful thinking. But if a Labour Government gets in support for the SNP will probably drop.

Except it doesn’t. Not legislative alignment. Scotland would need to adopt across a lot of UK legislation first.

Um yes it does. Or at least it did when we left the EU. Not that much EU legislation has passed since then.

this is the prime example of why - should Scotland leave the UK and join the EU - there would have to be a hard border between Scotland and England. The EU standards now differ from the UK standards and goods moving over EU borders must meet the standards. Scotland would have to ensure it meets EU standards again, and put a border up to ensure UK goods don’t enter the EU (Scotland) without thorough checks. There is no simple answer to the border question.

I think you will find most legislation is UK legislation not Scottish. If Scotland leaves then that legislation no longer applies. Including the Equality Act and Hunan Rights legislation.

I thought that after the Alex Salmond enquiry, especially having listened to lots of her non-answers. Just don’t feel it’s going to be that easy, especially as there is no one to replace her. Joanna Cherry May have been good, but she wouldn’t have enough parliamentary party support.

But Scotland does already meet all the other criteria which are to do with deomocracy, human rights, legal system, legislative alignment etc.

Scotland doesn’t exist as an independent country so it is actually not possible to say whether any of these criteria will be met until independent systems of governance, legislation etc has been set up. You can’t even tick off legal system as it is not possible to assume the current system would still apply. All that would have to be determined and until it is the EU would not be able to assess any of it.

And given some of the SNPs proposed legislation, it is no means certain Scotland would comply on human rights.

I'm fatigued with it all tbh! The divisive politics, constant independence chat and uncertainty.

We have been here over a decade, have paid our taxes, children born here yet a small minority still tell us we have no right to either vote or have a opinion.

We have already discussed it and my job can be moved to another office in the North of England. Still quiet location, still lots of outdoor space etc. We are going to see what happens next few years but basically if independence gets pushed through then we will move to England rather then face the hyperbole, crazy taxes and a hard border with England. I have several friends who are doing the same thing hatching a plan.

Picking up on some of the earlier themes in this thread, a pretty damning (I guess to be expected) article in The Telegraph www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/28/how-scotland-became-wokest-country-world/

Awww wee silly sausage.

Scotland doesn't have borrowing powers so cannot have debt.
Gers figures are a snapshot of scotland within the uk.
The uk has debt which scotland would be (in case of independence) responsible for its share of but scotland would also have its share of UK assets.
Try & get the basics right op before spouting nonsense.

Also, whilst we're at it.

England keeps its trans prisoners in HMP Downview (a woman's prison) and has done since 2019 under the EA laws.

As gra law was not in effect,

"Isla Bryson" was sent into custody based on existing uk law. Douglas ross or dross as he's known in scotland is a stupid wee Tory chancer.

You're welcome.

If anyone genuinely believes scotland a 'drain' on rUK then why on earth would they think that a Tory government or any government wants to keep scotland.

Seriously use some critical thinking.

Ps the reason the snp/greens continually win is because the majority of voters continually vote for them. I'm happy with our government & everyone i know is also. I'll be voting for them again. I'm pleased with how our country is run.

Anyone whatsoever (transphobes excepted) and looks at the last (how many?) Tory pm's & Labour leaders & Tory leaders in scotland that The First Minister has seen off & thinks any of them are a better premier is off their head.

She is a solid dependable cautious trusted politician. (I know that the hate Mail would have you believe differently - stop reading it would be my advice.

But but but England....

Douglas ross or dross as he's known in scotland is a stupid wee Tory chancer.

Ah ad hominem attack, the reserve of those without argument.