What restrictions will Nicola announce on Tuesday?

[ShiftingSands21]

Does anyone have a strong sense of what we should expect tomorrow?

@BoredZelda

No one wants to. But it makes sense that it’s those who are at risk who get that choice. Everyone else just need to get on with things.

They don’t want to. They are forced to because of their disability. Just one more way an ableist society treats them as second class citizens.

Funny when anyone suggests the same for unvaccinated people, who have a choice they can easily make to avoid it, that’s an abuse of their human rights apparently.

See my previous post this has always been the case and I have friends who are immuno suppressed and my FIL went through stem cell chemo a few years ago (particularly risky) and stayed away from everyone with very strict measures and restricted visitors.

Also the concept that all immuno suppressed and disabled are locked in their houses is nonsense. Some like my friend are fed up with hiding they protect themselves where they can with FFP2 level masks but they decide which risks they are happy taking. For my friend she doesn't see the point catching it in a supermarket so gets online delivery but has had trips abroad to enjoy herself.

We are not at the same level we were 2 years ago. There is a variety of treatments available from antiviral to steroids, vaccines reduce the severity of the illness for many, Dr's have learnt an awful lot.

From being on of the unlucky ones who got very ill the steroids made a huge difference for example.

I know it sounds a little heartless, but clinically vulnerable people have always been advised to take additional steps to protect themselves. Mild illnesses to others have always been an threat to them, and I understand if some might feel like they want to shield (and they should be supported to do so if they wish). It absolutely sucks for them, but are you seriously suggesting that everyone else should also be locked down in some kind of solidarity? COVID isn't going anywhere, and it is now very well established that measures taken to control spread have heavy costs, hence all the talk of being proportionate. It is clear at this point that vaccines will not stop spread, so there is no reasonable argument for forcing people to undergo a medical intervention that does carry risks (which may well be greater than the risks of COVID for them as individuals). I do think it's an abuse of basic human rights to force medical interventions on people; I can't believe that is even in question. For society as a whole we need to have one of those grown up conversations about whether, at this point, the 'cure' of trying to stop COVID is worse than the disease.

It doesn’t sound a little heartless it is heartless. I’m not suggesting people should lockdown in solidarity, and if you see it that way, it just shows you really don’t understand the situation from the point of view of disabled people. I’m suggesting that we all take appropriate steps to allow people, including those who are disabled, to continue to live their lives as best as possible. So that they can continue to access the services they need to avoid their disability becoming more difficult to live with. So they can continue to work and not have their finances impacted further, when their starting point is already one of a lack of money compared to non disabled people. So they don’t have to rely on others to provide for them or costly online shopping options.

It is far from clear that vaccines don’t reduce the spread. It is clear that more people being vaccinated is better for the whole nation. Healthy people are whining about taking this oh so dangerous vaccine and that they shouldn’t be basically forced to do so in order to access services, but they are entirely happy for disabled people to be put in exactly the same situation. Medically vulnerable people were given this vaccine long before them so they could be protected and resume more of a normal life. To suggest this was a real choice is laughable.

But it’s ok for them isn’t it. They just have to suck it up. I mean, non vulnerable people don’t want to take the most basic of precautions with masks and distancing and working from home if they can, and it’s so heinous for them to be forced to do so. But if the result of that is that vulnerable people are effectively forced to stay at home, and be vaccinated, that’s entirely ok because they are just making a choice.

Also the concept that all immuno suppressed and disabled are locked in their houses is nonsense.

You mean you aren’t doing it. That doesn’t mean nobody is. In any event, the point wasn’t necessarily that it is happening (and it is, despite your own anecdata), it is about people who say that is what should happen, rather than people taking simple precautions which could avoid it.

For my friend she doesn't see the point catching it in a supermarket so gets online delivery but has had trips abroad to enjoy herself.

How fortunate for your friend she has the money to be able to do that. That is not typical for disabled people who are more than twice as likely to be struggling financially than non disabled people. Half of all households in poverty have at least one disabled person in them. The costs of covid for many disabled people have pushed them further into poverty and debt.

You're obviously very upset about this @BoredZelda, and it's understandable if people are concerned. But what reasonable steps can be taken at this point that will change the situation? I think we know at this point that anything short of a full lockdown (all the masks etc.) will have minimal effect against the incoming waves, just as they did against the summer waves. And full lockdown carries with it harms that probably are considerably greater than the harms of COVID at this point, now that we have extensive immunity and much better treatments. We have to also think of the cost of trying to suppress COVID in terms of people's livelihoods and mental health. This isn't an us or them with disabled people (I have disabled people in my family), it's about what's best for the whole of society and everyone being allowed to live with the risks they are comfortable with in a reasonable way. COVID isn't going anywhere but it's simply not reasonable to ask everyone to take these kinds of hits indefinitely and shut down society every time there's a new variant.

I think it's a fundamental facet of human rights that people are able to decide freely, without coercion, what medical interventions they have (disabled or otherwise). This doesn't mean that I don't agree with vaccination, and have personally decided to have the vaccine. This means that others should also have that same choice, and actually, most people are choosing to get vaccinated. This will probably make more difference to the omicron wave than any fiddling about with mask mandates or one way systems etc. Our coverage is extremely high, there's no need to abandon basic principles of human rights.

The worst case scenario for me is that we get well into next week and there's a last minute UK lockdown "alas". Meanwhile everyone is struggling through without furlough or support especially musicians, events , hospitality because we are being told to " make our own choices". It's just reinforcing inequality, so basically people with money, pensioners or wfh or permanent posts are ok, while poor and young workers on temp contracts ( and teachers, NHS, care staff ) are just left to fend for themselves.
Nicola Sturgeon is always criticised for making it political but BJ is unbelievable and actually worse than before, if that's possible.

Interesting article in the BBC this morning is clarifying what is advice and what is actually law. Interesting to see that the isolation advice for household contacts (10 days for everyone) is only advice, as I think it was presented very much as law!

She's back in Parliament at 12 today. That's never good

@IsurviveonCoffeeandWinein2021

She's back in Parliament at 12 today. That's never good

Just reading what shes been saying. She wants to close everything but schools by the sound of it, and is going to harangue bojo until he caves.

I don't think Nicola sturgeon will put us into lockdown but she will probably put further restrictions in place over the coming week.

@BoredZelda did you bother to read the study review link in the bmj? Effectiveness of 9% in some studies for masks I hardly the magic bullet you make them out to be!

Yes that's known but to portray that all at risk people are locked away terrified isn't exactly representative either as stated I have several in this category who had shielding letters they are choosing not to do so which is their choice. They want to go into their office 2 days a week and they want to not be locked away. Just as its the choice of other vulnerable people to decide how to protect themselves.

Yes disabled people are more likely to face difficulties and hardship this is a fact but its not like that is all and many work places have policies to assist into work now mine certainly does. It's not the norm for all disabled people to not be working or be able to have a holiday!

Oh and your right @boredzelda I'm not locking myself away. We did that last year and my FIL passed away suddenly and so did DF all non covid. They missed out on a last Christmas with family because of lockdown rules and we had the completely stupid travel ban across to England like that was magically going to stop a virus!

I can't wear a mask actually since having covid and subsequently long covid prior to vaccination, I don't judge anyone for wearing or not wearing one it's personal choice and nobody knows the reasons behind an individual.
Covid seems to give certain people justification to judge others, be horrible, make comments and even cases of being spot at because of how they deem society should be and the language which comes out of the govt seems to give those people justification. Words like it's not hard, everyone's duty, basic responsibility etc etc.

Being on the receiving end of people like this is extremely challenging. True to form today I was told I was selfish and should be locked up....by a complete stranger!

Covid hasn't made society pull together or be kind it's given people the feeling they are justified to be cruel, judgemental or aggressive because someone isn't seen to be doing "their bit"

Covid seems to give certain people justification to judge others, be horrible, make comments and even cases of being spot at because of how they deem society should be

Yes. It definitely makes it very clear that yet again disabled people are second class citizens and not worth caring about.

Now she's pleading for us to all stay at home. Eh do one! It's nearly 2yrs of this shit c'mon we just lock ourselves away forever. Why bother with the vaccines if this is what it means.

Im so glad she doesn't have the powers to reintroduce furlough because let's face it we wld all be in lockdown now and she said as much.

It does demonstrate that all these measures, including masks, are a complete waste of time

Effectiveness of 9% in some studies for masks I hardly the magic bullet you make them out to be!

There are dozens of different studies reported in dozens of places. I actually don’t believe there is a definitive number as there are so many variables. But the one thing that is true is, they do make a difference and there are very few drawbacks. Whether that is 9% or 90%, it’s worth doing as part of a wider strategy. If you were eating a meal and someone said there’s a ten percent chance it will make you very ill, would you do it?

Yes that's known but to portray that all at risk people are locked away terrified isn't exactly representative either as stated I have several in this category who had shielding letters they are choosing not to do so which is their choice. They want to go into their office 2 days a week and they want to not be locked away.

Your anecdata doesn’t mean anything.

Just as its the choice of other vulnerable people to decide how to protect themselves.

Please stop calling it a choice. It really isn’t. Nobody would willingly put their health or life at risk unless the alternative was pretty crap.

Yes disabled people are more likely to face difficulties and hardship this is a fact but its not like that is all and many work places have policies to assist into work now mine certainly does. It's not the norm for all disabled people to not be working or be able to have a holiday!

Again, anecdata means nothing. The real numbers are what matters. More than half of disabled people in the U.K. are unemployed. This compares with a figure of nearly 85% of non disabled people. Nearly a quarter of disabled people rent social housing compared with less than 8% of non disabled people. Disabled people are four times more likely to report feeling lonely or isolated. I could go on, but the picture you paint of a person with a disability living a lovely life where they can pick and choose and enjoy carefree holidays abroad, with supportive employers, as lovely as that picture is, is not in any way representative. I really wish it were.

The problem with assuming that it’s the norm, or even with suggesting it’s fine because some live like that, is that it ignores the real hardships faced and using your example when setting policies or even saying “they can choose” will leave a large number of people struggling.

It does demonstrate that all these measures, including masks, are a complete waste of time

It does nothing of the sort. Unless you think the outcome was to get rid of Covid altogether, which was never going to be possible.

She’s back on at 12:15 with an update.

Right @boredzelda so your opinion that all disabled people and vulnerable are being shafted counts but my stating that actually its the individual choice and many including friends and family of mine in thisvery same category is just anecdotal and doesn't count for anything...... right gotcha!

Still means there is a percentage of disabled people in employment though doesn't it and it's not anecdotal that there are policies and laws in place such as right to interview etc.

Just because your opinion or experience is something doesn't mean it's that for everyone in that category or group!

People have to go with what they are comfortable with Full stop. This is never disappearing it's here to stay and everyone will have different levels of what is acceptable.

Disabled and vulnerable people also suggested disproportionately during lockdowns due to lack of carers, rest bite, physio access and GP support.....

You concentrate on masks so much when the biggest known risk is ventilation. It is number 1 on the public health risk. Mask studies do vary on type, how long in a space etc and they all have a similar statement IF USED CORRECTLY..... which is what I find the most comical about people getting on their high horse about them!

So a few questions back.....
do you change your mask for a new one every 3 hours or after each take on/off wear or when high moisture content?
Do you sanitise your hands before and after putting it on?
Do you remove and put it into a sealed bag and either dispose of it or wash straight away at 60 degrees if a cloth mask?
Do you apply a filter layer to a cloth mask and change it every few hours?
Do you only ever touch the ear loops and readjust once then sanitise your hands?

Or do you do as most people stick it in your pocket or bag, wear the same one multiple times, not change it frequently enough and not handle it correctly?!

Personally I would like to see everywhere have sufficient fresh air ventilation systems which keeps the risk far lower!

@Yellow85

She’s back on at 12:15 with an update.

Oh no I’ve got feelings of dread.

Just been told DH’s op is put back by at least 2 months as well.

This is all so frustrating.

I'm hoping that the 12:15 broadcast is just to remind us all that we're all in mortal danger and we have to listen to her god damn it!! I don't think Boris has agreed to any additional funding to shut down businesses etc. (I imagine it would be all over the news if he had), so I can't see her imposing any new restrictions.

Why the hell is the Nicola show she back on again today?

She could just be reminding us that legal restrictions like social distancing come into force today I suppose.

That’s rubbish about the op @ShiftingSands21

Thank you @WouldBeGood

At work so won't be watching Nicolas announcement. I thought the restrictions for this week had been sorted out already.