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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

999 replies

TheShadowyFeminist · 06/04/2021 15:46

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LexMitior · 23/04/2021 10:21

@SempreSuiGeneris

For my fellow Roddy Dunlop QC fans. He's articulating the problem I was alluding to yesterday.

"This is good example of (misguided, IMHO) ‘guidance’- not enforceable law. If you’re allowed to travel to Scotland, you’re allowed to use exactly the same facilities here as the citizens of Scotland.Unlawful discrimination otherwise, which ScotGov cannot possibly be suggesting."

Joking aside, the current Scottish Government shows an implaccable mean mindedness does it not? Anyone legally trained would have known the same point, and so therefore, you can really extrapolate that the intention is to be unwelcoming and encourage people to challenge "border crossers".

In other words, you get social enforcement of this by those who support the SNP. I dare say that anyone who objected to that would be shouted down in the current environment.

Independent or not, the SNP do not seem to be building a very free place to live. Along with the HCB now policing language per se, telling Parliamentarians what do and what they can't see with the benefit of the Crown office, and now telling people what services they can access and the merits of a harder border.

At what point will people realise that this all looks rather repressive and over the border that there is more freedom? It doesn't look like Scotland is going to engage with the remainder of the UK in any way based on the current performance.

LexMitior · 23/04/2021 10:24

Classic nationalism by the way, to declare you need to protect your borders! Hells teeth what if it were the other way around? It seems that actually the law doesn't matter - the SNP persuade enough people that English (or indeed anyone sustaining an English accent) should be in the country then you have defacto got your independent border.... nasty stuff

WouldBeGood · 23/04/2021 11:03

Was there a reason given as to why NS wasn’t on QT?

Bytheloch · 23/04/2021 11:25

@WouldBeGood

Was there a reason given as to why NS wasn’t on QT?
Haven’t seen one, even in the murky depths of Twitter. Deputy Dawg with his shiny Yes badge, was not a good stand in. even I would have preferred to see NS in action There’s a Channel 4 News all leaders special on the 27th.
RedactedTaeFeck · 23/04/2021 11:33

DH tends to hang out in Youtube and the feeling there is that she's over egged things and that even supporters are starting to ask questions about the election give aways. Maybe she was trying to avoid awkward questions that she can't really answer.

In the past she would always have had some slick way of diverting the answer to a question she wanted to answer or some way to blame Westminster. Obviously a trick most competent politicians will use but she was very good at it. Maybe the wheels are coming off the wagon, especially her current finger pointing, head shaking, angry spitting demeanour that seems to be cracking through. Not a good look for prime watching tv. Or maybe it was her turn on the shredder that night?

StarryEyeSurprise · 23/04/2021 11:43

@LexMitior

Classic nationalism by the way, to declare you need to protect your borders! Hells teeth what if it were the other way around? It seems that actually the law doesn't matter - the SNP persuade enough people that English (or indeed anyone sustaining an English accent) should be in the country then you have defacto got your independent border.... nasty stuff
You really are losing the plot.
CirclesWithinCircles · 23/04/2021 11:49

LeMitior Independent or not, the SNP do not seem to be building a very free place to live. Along with the HCB now policing language per se, telling Parliamentarians what do and what they can't see with the benefit of the Crown office, and now telling people what services they can access and the merits of a harder border.

At what point will people realise that this all looks rather repressive and over the border that there is more freedom? It doesn't look like Scotland is going to engage with the remainder of the UK in any way based on the current performance.

I couldn't agree more. Admittedly I have a slight outsider's perspective, from the point of view that I lived and worked in Belgium and The Netherlands for a while. But Scotland already does have a bit of a poor reputation amongst many non-Brits. I remember suggesting to a Danish friend working for the EU that she could move to Scotland for work, and the reply was "Eugh". A lot of my Dutch friends are shocked when I tell them about the legislation being passed in Scotland and describe it as "sounding communist" and "unbelievable". And that is the reputation that Scotland is getting.

No doubt there will be someone coming along soon with a one or two sentence grandiose dismissal of anyone's experience who is not following the SNP authorised approach, without any attached explanation or reasoning. It always strikes me as sad that people who have spent their entire lives in a country of 5 million people and followed the political leanings of their own somewhat radical parents think they know it all and can dismiss people who have wider experience in the outside world.

The xenophobia is very strong in Scotland. Its a shame because Scots used to be famous for sending people all over the world to make their mark, but it currently seems dominated by those looking to control the population and run it as their own little fiefdom, complete with the benefits that brings for them and them alone.

I'm not actually against the idea of independence at all - many small countries such as Switzerland do great - although I wouldn't choose to live in an independent Scotland. I do however think that Scotland, at present, would be a small quasi communist, poverty stricken state if it became independent in its present incarnation. Even in recent years, its lost so many skilled engineers and other workers to England and no-one in the SNP or SG seems to care or think it worth discussing in Parliament.

Do I have any interest in working to make an independent Scotland better? No, because there is a whole world out there and Scotland is too old fashioned, sexist, lowly paid and small when there are better options. Which would sadly be good for said incompetents wanting to run it as their own personal fiefdom.

CirclesWithinCircles · 23/04/2021 11:52

@RedactedTaeFeck

DH tends to hang out in Youtube and the feeling there is that she's over egged things and that even supporters are starting to ask questions about the election give aways. Maybe she was trying to avoid awkward questions that she can't really answer.

In the past she would always have had some slick way of diverting the answer to a question she wanted to answer or some way to blame Westminster. Obviously a trick most competent politicians will use but she was very good at it. Maybe the wheels are coming off the wagon, especially her current finger pointing, head shaking, angry spitting demeanour that seems to be cracking through. Not a good look for prime watching tv. Or maybe it was her turn on the shredder that night?

I've never found her that effective or convincing, but then I'm used to the West-Rhenish school of discourse, so she just comes across as rude and shouty to me much of the time.

I'd love to take her on in debate, particularly about the contents of the last White Paper on Independence and the unaddressed constitutional and economic issues surrounding independence. I think I could handle her and hold her to account.

CirclesWithinCircles · 23/04/2021 11:55

@SempreSuiGeneris

For my fellow Roddy Dunlop QC fans. He's articulating the problem I was alluding to yesterday.

"This is good example of (misguided, IMHO) ‘guidance’- not enforceable law. If you’re allowed to travel to Scotland, you’re allowed to use exactly the same facilities here as the citizens of Scotland.Unlawful discrimination otherwise, which ScotGov cannot possibly be suggesting."

Theres a clear problem with respect for the rule of law when the First Minister advocates breaching anti-discrimination laws. Possibly will be an offence under the Hate Crime bill when it becomes law?

But this is advocating a breach of Article 18, the fundamental anti-discrimination article in EU treaties. Quite dreadful.

RedactedTaeFeck · 23/04/2021 11:58

I've never found her that effective or convincing, but then I'm used to the West-Rhenish school of discourse, so she just comes across as rude and shouty to me much of the time.

Well me either but you could dispassionately watch what what she was doing and the journalists and presenters seem to lap it up or certainly never question her on it.

WouldBeGood · 23/04/2021 12:09

I agree @RedactedTaeFeck

WouldBeGood · 23/04/2021 12:09

Imagine if England said No Scots in cafes!

It’s like the old boarding house notices in the bad old days.

RedactedTaeFeck · 23/04/2021 12:14

@WouldBeGood

Imagine if England said No Scots in cafes!

It’s like the old boarding house notices in the bad old days.

And how are they going to tell the difference between cross border english folk and those who live here and may even be "english for yes" or whatever they call themselves?

Do you need evidence of your home address before popping in for a coffee and a scone? Or do you give the game away when you fail to order Dundee cake or black bun or a haggis roll?

Maybe those "good" english people will get free elocution lessons in order to gain a proper Scottish accent or will we all be required to speak Gaelic anyway so that'll flush out the imposters? And they say we aren't racist.

LexMitior · 23/04/2021 12:24

I think the point is that this guidance will be used as a fig leaf for "social enforcement" of who should be in Scotland.

The current SG don't even make good laws. They smear their own by making illegal laws such as retrospective policies and bait their own lawyers into defending matters that are certain to lose.

The legal profession in Scotland are great - but honestly, that expertise is actually being ignored. The SNP are much more prepared to condition the social environment than they are to pass effective limited laws that maintain rights and freedoms. They know it meets prejudices of some, who will be delighted with that empowerment.

That's nationalism, so not a surprising result. If the legal cultures between Scotland and the rest of the UK diverge at this kind of pace then independence re very different approaches and standards is baked in.

StarryEyeSurprise · 23/04/2021 12:26

I've just looked up and she said that as pubs and cafes will be shut in England yet will be open in Scotland, people should not travel into Scotland in order to get around the fact that pubs and cafes are shut where they live.

She said she same when hospitality was open in England and not Scotland - that people should not travel south of the border to get a pint.

You lot are unbelievable! Racist, xenophobic, anti discrimination laws?! Ffs. I've heard it all now on the parallel universe of Mumsnet.

happygolurkey · 23/04/2021 12:34

It always strikes me as sad that people who have spent their entire lives in a country of 5 million people and followed the political leanings of their own somewhat radical parents think they know it all and can dismiss people who have wider experience in the outside world.

you've lived in Belgium so think Scots do not have a clue about anything and can't be trusted with having a say in how their own country works. It's certainly not done anything for your self-awareness anyway. Your posts sum up everything we want to break free from.
No doubt there will be someone coming along soon with a one or two sentence grandiose dismissal of anyone's experience who is not following the SNP authorised approach
nah, nothing could demonstrate better the need for independence than your posts.

Scotland is too old fashioned, sexist, lowly paid and small
right.

I'd love to take her on in debate
Grin Grin Grin i bet she's quaking
(by the way, how do you know where everyone posting on this thread has or hadn't lived?)

happygolurkey · 23/04/2021 12:50

I think the point is that this guidance will be used as a fig leaf for "social enforcement" of who should be in Scotland.

sorry LexMitior seriously think you've lot the plot here. this is just dangerous scaremongering.

National clinical director Prof Jason Leitch said people should not be crossing borders to do things that they could not do in their own country.
"People from Cumbria should not come to the indoor hospitality in Dumfries, and people shouldn't go the other way to do stuff that they cannot do (in Scotland)," he said.
"But of course they should do it to visit family outdoors in their gardens, because that has not been possible."

That is perfectly sensible would you not agree? We're trying to get out of a pandemic for God's sake - most people are trying to respectfully try and stick to rules to prevent the virus getting out of control again. If I was asked to stick to certain rules, whether it was when i travelled to England, another part of Scotland or the Scottish Islands, I'd be trying my best to stick to it.. I think most right-minded people (who are not trying to make pathetic political capital) would

LexMitior · 23/04/2021 12:58

I've lost the plot but you seek my agreement?

No, much like Brexit inspired uniqueness, the repurposing of "guidance" which is barely read by the general population and the legal status is not understood, then of course, that misunderstanding and misinterpretation at best will of course allow a good bit of conditioning as to how people should act.

My case - Mr Blackford and the photographer. A good, immediate example, for which Blackford ultimately had to apologise.

Bytheloch · 23/04/2021 13:07

Apparently NS has said “I've not seen Emma's comments directly"
Even we have seen what she said🤣

Can only assume Emma ‘jobs creation at the border’ Harper, has been telt good and proper today!

LexMitior · 23/04/2021 13:10

@Bytheloch

Apparently NS has said “I've not seen Emma's comments directly" Even we have seen what she said🤣

Can only assume Emma ‘jobs creation at the border’ Harper, has been telt good and proper today!

Well said MSP either a total fool or she was encouraged to say it to test the waters. Waters tested, retreat is being beaten back.

Still, revealing, and should be taken seriously given the SNP's impressive communications culture. They don't often say stuff that isn't cleared or agreed, do they?

happygolurkey · 23/04/2021 13:12

I've lost the plot but you seek my agreement?

Fair point.

annabelindajane · 23/04/2021 13:30

@StarryEyeSurprise

I've just looked up and she said that as pubs and cafes will be shut in England yet will be open in Scotland, people should not travel into Scotland in order to get around the fact that pubs and cafes are shut where they live.

She said she same when hospitality was open in England and not Scotland - that people should not travel south of the border to get a pint.

You lot are unbelievable! Racist, xenophobic, anti discrimination laws?! Ffs. I've heard it all now on the parallel universe of Mumsnet.

But what about the SNP approving puberty blockers for children which will affect their health for rest of their lives but not approving ice cream and custard at lunchtime? Does this not sum them up ?

Useless on the big detail .

Saw another wee story in paper - Sg appointed a turnaround director to sort out the ferry debacle.

He’s been at the job for 2 years and been paid almost £2 million in fees and still barely made any progress . Mmmmmmm

He is to date “ the most lavishly rewarded and publicly accountable official in Scotland” .

LexMitior · 23/04/2021 13:46

@happygolurkey

I've lost the plot but you seek my agreement?

Fair point.

I think the essential point is that the SNP are creating an environment that is more and more restrictive in terms of what people can say, where they can move, that in legislative terms they are having to write down basic human rights which is unnecessary in the rest of the UK because the legislation in so badly drafted in Scotland.

This thread shows the confusion between guidance and its legal status. I think many in Scotland do not know the difference - and of course that is exploited by politicians in the SNP. They are setting social standards by the back door, resulting in a less free society in terms of speech.

On the point you made regarding me - and indeed your response, I was inviting you to realise that a point well made is not one that deals with evidence and what is done, and that starting the discussion with this sort of stuff isn't really productive. What's the point in saying this? I disagree with lots of people professionally but have never encountered this even if we did disagree.

happygolurkey · 23/04/2021 14:26

Respectfully asking people not to cross borders specifically and solely just to escape rules in their own areas does not seem outrageous to me - considering the unprecedented and frightening times we've found ourselves in with the pandemic. Similarly, when Cumbria police urged Celtic and Rangers fans not to cross the border to watch the match in pubs so they could dodge the indoor drinking ban here.
To claim this is about 'social enforcement of who is in Scotland' I can't help feeling is a very big leap to say the least.
I wonder if Jason Leitch is yet another person deemed by Scotnet to be too thick/shady/ etc to know any better.

LexMitior · 23/04/2021 15:03

Yes but the examples you cite are not the same as the SG saying those things, which suggest that this is law. That difference is clearly exploited in the context of a pandemic.

For example, do you actually know what status the guidance of the SG is? In legal terms?

I suspect most don't, which is my point about social conditioning. Your post also raises an interesting about what is "normal" - at what point would this guidance cease to be?

The SG has previously raised a similar risk with an open border between England and Scotland with regarding the taxing of tampons. Was that a real risk, and one that needed to be taken seriously?

The culture NS has propogated in Scotland seems rather finger wagging, does it not? That is what I mean about social conditioning... change the culture, people do the work for you.

"My government says..."