Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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@Itwasjustresting

shadowy, do you think it’s as simple as NS needs to do this to keep the greens on side? Or does she truly believe?

I spent years thinking that she'd been protected from the arguments by her SPADs etc and that if she was given a proper opportunity to meet people who could explain the potential problems she'd be more understanding of them. But after the speech she made in her TV interview the other day about the transphobic people in her party who oppose the legislation I'm afraid I think she really does believe in it all. I still really don't understand why - she seems pragmatic in many ways, so it's counter-intuitive, really.

Just to expand further, the consultation on the draft GRA bill states in the EQIA on their assessment of any impact for women, under the protected characteristic of sex, Scotgov stated:

9. There is a lack of any evidence around the actual experienced impacts of trans inclusion in services.Much of the literature identified does not justify a blanket exclusion of trans women from services or spaces...

And referenced

9. Gottschalk, L., 2009. Transgendering women's space: A feminist analysis of perspectives from Australian women's services. Women's Studies International Forum, 32(3): 167-178

To support that claim. Only Gottschalk said the opposite.

Gottschalk Paper:
This paper is based on interviews with women working in women’s services and has been referenced by the government in its consultation paper in order to argue that blanket policies of trans preclusion from women’s services to allow for female-only services, would not usually be warranted. However this paper in fact makes the case for the opposite conclusion, based on the evidence gathered by the author via the interviews therein, stating “Trans-inclusion then is one of the greatest threats faced by women”.
In this paper, a number of points were made by interviewees in regard to the adverse impact of the inclusion of transwomen in women’s services: Issues were raised in regard to trans inclusion in a women’s refuge, where a transwomen had to be moved so staff could ensure they upheld a ‘duty of care’ to ‘women and children’ in the refuge. It was also stated that workers could find trans inclusion ‘stressful’ and ‘problematic’ and ‘had exposed and confirmed their beliefs that men and MTFs did not understand gendered male and female socialisation and gender power and concluded that they were not able to empathise with the experiences of women’.

Link source

This is the paper that Shirley Ann Somerville had to apologise over in parliament for including in the EQIA.

10. Dunne, P., 2017. (Trans)forming single gender services and communal accommodations. Social and Legal Studies, 26(5).

Link to paper

In making the argument that males who identify as women shouldn't be excluded from female only space, Dunne compares those males to a women who has had a mastectomy " It would be unthinkable that general discomfort could prevent a cisgender woman from using segregated showering facilities after she had a double mastectomy. "

This is the level of tunnel vision the SNP/scotgov have over this. And it's why Alba are definitely trying to curate the votes of women by stating they'll defend single sex spaces etc.

@Itwasjustresting

shadowy, do you think it’s as simple as NS needs to do this to keep the greens on side? Or does she truly believe?

I think she's 100% all in with this nonsense. She's tried keeping her distance on it but she's shown that she's fully on board the TWAW bus. The 'transphobia' off the cuff video for a bunch of student activists (who themselves are happily dishing out abuse to women within the SNP) says a lot about her priorities.

I'm not sure if the greens introduced the ideas to the SNP or not, but there's a small clique of third sector women's orgs who are very evangelical over trans rights to the point they colluded with Equality Network/Scottish Trans Alliance to redefine 'woman' in the GRPB bill (the one where FWS lost the JR on). They're the same group funded by Scotgov & who Scotgov invoke whenever there's any pushback on their positions.

What came 1st, I've no idea. But the one thing I can guarantee is that Sturgeon being elected & confirmed as FM come May, she'll push through GRA & then it's an uphill battle with JR (and huge expenses) to challenge. The FWS case lost recently shows the risks involved & the huge expense too.

I can't see how it was a good idea to pass a hate crime bill leaving out the hardest bit - and I agree most people don't understand that chucking a misogyny bill into the pot down the line won't work as it doesn't resolve the tensions.

And if legislation can't protect the rights of all parties in Scotland because it's too hard to do in one central piece of legislation, what hope have service providers of navigating this?

The HCB pushes more costs onto groups less qualified and able to resolve these tensions than legislators.

I see the SNP's PPB is going down well on Twitter. 😂😂

Very dystopian.

I heard Patrick Harvie ranting in a hustings yesterday about trans rights. He is such an odious wee man and I hope gets voted out

Jenny Marra commented on it:

"I’m not comfortable with @patrickharvie questioning my right to ask the FM her view on an English court ruling on children, especially when @scotgov does not record or know how many girls, their health and fertility, are affected by puberty blockers. Women won’t wheest."

Link to tweet

@ScotlandUnited

I heard Patrick Harvie ranting in a hustings yesterday about trans rights. He is such an odious wee man and I hope gets voted out

Sadly unlikely, isn't he green's list for Glasgow?

Does anyone actually like him though?

I've yet to find anyone who can stomach the feral potato.

Our favourite(? - too presumptuous?) QC Roddy Dunlop has joined in the piss take over the SNP PPB

Link to tweet

"On reflection, I have decided to shelve today’s planned tweet complaining that the word “Orwellian” is being overused these days.*

*disclaimer: this is gently poking fun at a party political broadcast, not espousing any particular political point of view."

😁

His mum might like him stats!

Very interesting intervention here by Salmond on HCB, GRA reform & in particular the abuse of Joanna Cherry.

Link to tweet with clip of his comments

I'm beginning to see more clearly why there's such opposition to Alba getting on the same platform as the other parties - none (except the Tories) want to get into a discussion on GRA/HCB & are desperate to avoid the Jo Swinson foot in mouth knot tying that comes from the Qs this subject invokes.

I don't think they should be allowed to have such an easy ride on this.

@titsintiers

His mum might like him stats!

Steph(en) Paton seems to as well. But that's not really a helpful recommendation!

@titsintiers

His mum might like him stats!

I dunno, it might be one of those "I love my child, but they're a bit of an arse" situations

@TheShadowyFeminist

Very interesting intervention here by Salmond on HCB, GRA reform & in particular the abuse of Joanna Cherry.

Link to tweet with clip of his comments

I'm beginning to see more clearly why there's such opposition to Alba getting on the same platform as the other parties - none (except the Tories) want to get into a discussion on GRA/HCB & are desperate to avoid the Jo Swinson foot in mouth knot tying that comes from the Qs this subject invokes.

I don't think they should be allowed to have such an easy ride on this.

It's so annoying when you find yourself agreeing with someone you generally consider to be a knob but he's pretty on the money here.

I know, right?

It's so annoying when you find yourself agreeing with someone you generally consider to be a knob but he's pretty on the money here.

Once you accept that all politicians are "politicians" this becomes less of an issue. My perspective is that it is much healthier when they are robust enough to openly disagree with each. At least that way we get to hear more sides of the debate and have more hope of reasoned consensus eventually. So in that regard alone AS is a welcome addition to the fray.

@SempreSuiGeneris

It's so annoying when you find yourself agreeing with someone you generally consider to be a knob but he's pretty on the money here.

Once you accept that all politicians are "politicians" this becomes less of an issue. My perspective is that it is much healthier when they are robust enough to openly disagree with each. At least that way we get to hear more sides of the debate and have more hope of reasoned consensus eventually. So in that regard alone AS is a welcome addition to the fray.

Completely agree. Never a good thing to have heroes in politics. In fact the whole sex-based rights issue is a case in point. It's been extraordinary how quickly politicians of all hews have been prepared to abandon women's rights and sense. People I would have admired, like Elizabeth Warren. Never trust any of them an inch. Just keep the focus on policies and actions.

I dearly hope that there is more interrogation in debates and interviews of candidates' views of the GRA and the definition of what a woman is - and the full legal implications that fall out of TWAW dogma. I'm glad AS is addressing it. He's a canny politician and is probably hoping for a few Swinson moments. I've with him on that.

It's been extraordinary how quickly politicians of all hews have been prepared to abandon women's rights and sense.

That's been the biggest eye opener for me. The sheer madness in the US right now, with hundreds of violent male prisoners being transferred to women's prisons in California, with sooooo many people thinking this is ok. And of course, we've already got that in Scotland, where the justice minister failed to even engage with the ex prison governor of a women's Scottish prison who knows how male prisoners impact the women she was charged with caring for whilst in prison.

Salmond might well be cynically using these issues but he's been given an open goal by the rest of them, having capitulated to the madness. I'll never stop being absolutely stunned by this. It's twilight zone level of bizarre.

This whole woke-ness culture is very frightening, where you can't say or do anything anymore.
That's not to say I disagree with some of the movements out there but some of it just goes too far.

Tasmina Ahmed' Sheik, despite not currently holding a practicing certificate is facing a second disciplinary hearing.

www.scottishlegal.com/article/tasmina-ahmed-sheikh-to-appear-before-ssdt-next-month

www.heraldscotland.com/news/19216084.high-profile-alba-party-candidate-tasmina-ahmed-sheikh-facing-legal-tribunal-hearing/

BBC today.

The £140 fee to apply for a gender recognition certificate will be cut to "single figures" from next month, according to government sources.

Hello. Great title and thanks for new thread

I think Patrick Harvie might be the unifying force on Scotsnet- no one likes him 😂

To be fair I don't think I have any political heros but I think we've all had a "bloody hell I agree with them" moment.

The way "wokeness" has gone wild in the last few years is fascinating and alarming in equal measures, and has also made me question things I probably didn't disagree with at the time because it didn't affect me. The old "first they came for..." poem has somehow taken on a new resonance. I can't help thinking that many of the people who are such keen advocates just haven't found the issue they disagree about and so haven't realised how much their ability to speak freely is being curtailed.

The Greens annoy me generally because I really want to vote for them but they keep saying and doing really stupid shit.