Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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Starry But Ireland are putting in place minimum pricing and they're in the EU?

You have to say that if someone made a complaint to the EU Commission or took a court case to the CJEU, Ireland would lose and be fined. The solution is always greater taxation in the CJEU. Sometimes certain member states get an easy ride from the EU Commission, who conveniently "overlook" certain controversial breaches for a number of years, but that doesn't normally benefit small member states.

If I ran a company which was a member of the Scotch Whisky Association, I would be spitting feathers at the Scottish Government, after paying to take an A-G's ref to the CJEU, being told by the A-G that the SG minimum alcohol pricing legislation was almost certainly illegal under EU law and having the reference almost completely ignored on public policy grounds (because we were coming out of the EU anyway).

I just don’t think they have a clue what the plan is, apart from getting away from WM.

If they did, surely they’d set it out so we could see how good, sensible, and economically viable it is?

@CirclesWithinCircles

Starry But Ireland are putting in place minimum pricing and they're in the EU?

You have to say that if someone made a complaint to the EU Commission or took a court case to the CJEU, Ireland would lose and be fined. The solution is always greater taxation in the CJEU. Sometimes certain member states get an easy ride from the EU Commission, who conveniently "overlook" certain controversial breaches for a number of years, but that doesn't normally benefit small member states.

If I ran a company which was a member of the Scotch Whisky Association, I would be spitting feathers at the Scottish Government, after paying to take an A-G's ref to the CJEU, being told by the A-G that the SG minimum alcohol pricing legislation was almost certainly illegal under EU law and having the reference almost completely ignored on public policy grounds (because we were coming out of the EU anyway).

Dr João Breda, head of WHO’s European office for the Prevention and Control of Noncommunicable Diseases, said: “We don’t have an ideological position. We are evidence-based and science drives our advice to member states. We understand national context and not all countries can take the same decisions at the same time. But the current evidence tells us that using price is a very strong and very important (form of) ammunition and should be considered by all countries.”

Quite contradictory to what you're saying @ Greenland ( bearing in mind the EU asked the WHO to look into minimum pricing). Juse because one sector might not be happy with it, the facts suggest the policy is not illegal under EU law.

You don't need to be in the EU to have human rights and protections etc.

UK has been doing trade deals all over the world strangely without EU having to sort it for us.

And in the meantime, yet again money has been allocated to Holyrood specifically for the NHS and it's missing in action.

I just love travelling and enjoy borderless travel with no restrictions on imports, or taxes.

@RedactedTaeFeck

You don't need to be in the EU to have human rights and protections etc.

UK has been doing trade deals all over the world strangely without EU having to sort it for us.

And in the meantime, yet again money has been allocated to Holyrood specifically for the NHS and it's missing in action.

I don't know whats gone wrong with the Scottish education system, but I'm going to explain this really clearly.

TWO sources of human rights.

1. The EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, which is where your FOI rights, the right to be informed of the reasons behind a decision affecting you, data protection, the right to collective bargaining, the rights to workers' information, the right to proportionality in criminal sentencing, etc come from. ONLY AVAILABLE FOR EU MEMBER STATES TO JOIN. NO OTHER COUNTRY ABIDES BY THE FUNDAMENTAL CHARTER OTHER THAN EU MEMBER STATES. Enforced by the EU Commission (which enables individuals to complain, free of charge, about a breach) and the Court of Justice of the European Union.

1. The European Convention on Human Rights - gives much more basic, limited rights than the above. Enforced by the International Court of Human Rights in the Hague.

There is no firm commitment by the SNP, Alba, etc to sign up to the ECHR upon independence. It is extremely unlikely that the Charter of Fundamental Rights would be applied voluntarily in an independent Scotland, given the Scottish Government's opposition to even the extension of FOI rights to EIRs. If it were, it wouldn't be enforceable, given that there is no commitment to introduce a constitution given citizens rights to enforce their human rights.

The previous White Paper on independence contained a vague statement that an independent would have a "Scottish version of the ECHR", although it was unclear why Scots couldn't simply rely upon an independent Scotland actually becoming a signatory to the damned thing.

All mainstream European countries all give their citizens the benefit of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights IN ADDITION to the ECHR. Losing either is a retrograde step of such magnitude for the citizens of any country, its completley shocking.

Forgive me for being unable to take seriously the reassurances given by people who are unaware that there are TWO sources of EU human rights.

The big concern from Scotland of losing them has to be the loss of individual freedoms that seem to mark recent Scottish legislation, and the willingness of the Scottish government to promote legislation which interferes with people's basic freedoms, such as freedom of speech within their own homes and families, as typified by the Hate Crime bill.

Starry Dr João Breda, head of WHO’s European office for the Prevention and Control of Noncommunicable Diseases, said: “We don’t have an ideological position. We are evidence-based and science drives our advice to member states. We understand national context and not all countries can take the same decisions at the same time. But the current evidence tells us that using price is a very strong and very important (form of) ammunition and should be considered by all countries.”

Quite contradictory to what you're saying @ Greenland ( bearing in mind the EU asked the WHO to look into minimum pricing). Juse because one sector might not be happy with it, the facts suggest the policy is not illegal under EU law.

I hate to point it out to you, but the World Health Education not only has no law-making powers, it isn't part of the EU. Only the EU can legislate for EU member states.

I should imagine that applying tax based measures might differ somewhat between a country such as Zimbabwe or Panama, as opposed to Germany or Denmark...

@RedactedTaeFeck

You don't need to be in the EU to have human rights and protections etc.

UK has been doing trade deals all over the world strangely without EU having to sort it for us.

And in the meantime, yet again money has been allocated to Holyrood specifically for the NHS and it's missing in action.

I saw the open goal Q asked by an SNP MP, seemingly oblivious to the premise of the Q he was asking. Giving the likes of Hancock such an easy hit back, because the bloke clearly didn't have a clue what he was talking about, and the SNP have funnelled NHS funds to be used elsewhere it seems.

It still astounds be just how much they continue to get away with.

clip here in case anyone interested

I don't mean to be rude, but I feel I've wandered into a remedial class here of late. I have no idea why this basic knowledge isn't taught in Scottish schools, but its really difficult to try and fill in the gaps of adult knowledge. This is a feeling I often get when amongst SNP supporters - they're just not very well informed, but they don't think that matters, because Scotland is the best wee country in the world and its unique and special so different rules apply here and its ok, cos the EU will allow it as it has nice mountains and lochs.

Criticise all you like - this is seriously a level at which I struggle to communicate with other adults.

By comparison, I do have plenty of friends in another European country who are taught this sort of thing, along with the importance of having a bicameral parliamentary system, in school. Somethings going seriously wrong in Scotland.

@TheShadowyFeminist thanks! What an embarrassment that question was

I do get fed up of the evil tories/but Norway! answers to any questions about independence.

There seems no way of finding out actual policy, and I think the truth is that there isn’t any. Except milk and honey in Brigadoon.

Forgive me for being unable to take seriously the reassurances given by people who are unaware that there are TWO sources of EU human rights.

I'm not sure if that was aimed at me? I'm not claiming any particular set of human rights exists or doesn't. I'm no fan of the SNP or their disastrous record and fantastical believe in their own gobshite. I don't trust them either. But, the point I was making is that the UK or anywhere CAN have decent human rights, it's not only possible via the EU. Whether we get them or not remains to be seen.

@CirclesWithinCircles

Starry Dr João Breda, head of WHO’s European office for the Prevention and Control of Noncommunicable Diseases, said: “We don’t have an ideological position. We are evidence-based and science drives our advice to member states. We understand national context and not all countries can take the same decisions at the same time. But the current evidence tells us that using price is a very strong and very important (form of) ammunition and should be considered by all countries.”

Quite contradictory to what you're saying @ Greenland ( bearing in mind the EU asked the WHO to look into minimum pricing). Juse because one sector might not be happy with it, the facts suggest the policy is not illegal under EU law.

I hate to point it out to you, but the World Health Education not only has no law-making powers, it isn't part of the EU. Only the EU can legislate for EU member states.

I should imagine that applying tax based measures might differ somewhat between a country such as Zimbabwe or Panama, as opposed to Germany or Denmark...

I'm quite sure even the young people in my class know the WHO isn't part of the EU and can't put legislation into place!!

The EU asked the WHO to investigate minimum pricing for alcohol. 'Member states' in the above relates to members of the EU.

I very much doubt they'd ask the WHO to analyse minimum pricing if they deem minimum pricing to be illegal.

@RedactedTaeFeck

Forgive me for being unable to take seriously the reassurances given by people who are unaware that there are TWO sources of EU human rights.

I'm not sure if that was aimed at me? I'm not claiming any particular set of human rights exists or doesn't. I'm no fan of the SNP or their disastrous record and fantastical believe in their own gobshite. I don't trust them either. But, the point I was making is that the UK or anywhere CAN have decent human rights, it's not only possible via the EU. Whether we get them or not remains to be seen.

Rrright...and that really happens, doesn't it? Countries just make up their own sets of human rights, equivalent or superior to the EU Charter, do they?

Remind me how to get to Brigadoon again.

Rrright...and that really happens, doesn't it? Countries just make up their own sets of human rights, equivalent or superior to the EU Charter, do they?

Does anyone need to make up a new set? Just adopt the ones that that have already been created.

Starry I'm quite sure even the young people in my class know the WHO isn't part of the EU and can't put legislation into place!!

Please tell me you're not a teacher and influencing people with your muddled grasp of the EU?

You are aware that there are things called courts, yes? That courts make decisions on legality of legislative measures? That there is a huge body of EU case law which, while it doesn't state that minimum pricing is illegal per se, the outcome is always that taxation is preferred to legislation, because minimum pricing legislation is anti-competitive.

You have been told that in the Scotch Whisky case, the Advocate-General of the CJEU said the same thing, but you are now saying that you know better than the Advocate-General of the Court of Justice of the European Communities and that its ok.

Everyone who has ever worked in EU competition law knows that if the Scotch Whisky Association went back with a case to the CJEU this time, had it not been for Brexit, they would have won. Just because some legislation remains because there is not a body with the financial resources to pursue multiple court cases doesn't mean its beyond challenge in the future.

Even a rudimentary respect for the rule of law means that you follow what the case law states, not what some survey done by WHO said some time. Your thinking is very muddled and although theres some knowledge in there, you really would benefit from a bit more education because you're getting the basics muddled up.

I have now worked out who is advising the Scottish Government on whether their legislation is compatible with EU law, and lets just say, I'm neither very impressed (because they haven't worked in the field in Europe) nor very surprised (given their political leanings).

@RedactedTaeFeck

Rrright...and that really happens, doesn't it? Countries just make up their own sets of human rights, equivalent or superior to the EU Charter, do they?

Does anyone need to make up a new set? Just adopt the ones that that have already been created.

What, all of them? Or just the ones that don't conflict with existing Scottish legislation? The SG really isn't keen on EU competition law and Freedom of Information rights.

How would they be enforced? Given that the EU gives citizens a direct right to make a complaint, free of charge, but Scottish judicial review gives only a very limited right which wouldn't include this.

Which case law would apply? Or would it just be a stab in the dark? How would potential litigants know whether their case is likely to fail or succeed, given theres no judicial guidance?

It’s already been explained on Scotsnet that the EU doesn’t deal with legalities until a challenge is brought. It’s not a case of legislation being scrutinised by the EU before it’s made. There does seem to be a lot of misunderstanding on this.

@CirclesWithinCircles

Starry I'm quite sure even the young people in my class know the WHO isn't part of the EU and can't put legislation into place!!

Please tell me you're not a teacher and influencing people with your muddled grasp of the EU?

You are aware that there are things called courts, yes? That courts make decisions on legality of legislative measures? That there is a huge body of EU case law which, while it doesn't state that minimum pricing is illegal per se, the outcome is always that taxation is preferred to legislation, because minimum pricing legislation is anti-competitive.

You have been told that in the Scotch Whisky case, the Advocate-General of the CJEU said the same thing, but you are now saying that you know better than the Advocate-General of the Court of Justice of the European Communities and that its ok.

Everyone who has ever worked in EU competition law knows that if the Scotch Whisky Association went back with a case to the CJEU this time, had it not been for Brexit, they would have won. Just because some legislation remains because there is not a body with the financial resources to pursue multiple court cases doesn't mean its beyond challenge in the future.

Even a rudimentary respect for the rule of law means that you follow what the case law states, not what some survey done by WHO said some time. Your thinking is very muddled and although theres some knowledge in there, you really would benefit from a bit more education because you're getting the basics muddled up.

I have now worked out who is advising the Scottish Government on whether their legislation is compatible with EU law, and lets just say, I'm neither very impressed (because they haven't worked in the field in Europe) nor very surprised (given their political leanings).

Yes, I'd never heard of a court before. Thanks for filling me in.

I think there is a confusion here about what is possible v's what we expect ScotGov or UKGov to do or are doing.

There is no reason (other than being unwilling), that we couldn't just adopt everything that was in place pre brexit and carry on. We wouldn't have the ability to escalate anything beyond UK anymore granted, but the EU doesn't have a monopoly on Human rights. Whether we think they are the gold standard is another question as is whether ScotGov are going to trample all over them.

Right now, given the direction of travel within the 'progressive' SNP, the very last thing I'd want to happen is the SNP being in a position to draft their own 'niche' interpretation of human rights law. It would be the lobbyists & activists currently enjoying the patronage of sturgeon et al who would be given the chance to write in their shopping list of rights they want to see happen. The Yogyakarta Principles would be copied & pasted in to start with.

Doesn't bare thinking about 😬

I have now worked out who is advising the Scottish Government on whether their legislation is compatible with EU law, and lets just say, I'm neither very impressed (because they haven't worked in the field in Europe) nor very surprised (given their political leanings)

Interesting care to share? @CirclesWithinCircles

@TheShadowyFeminist

clip here in case anyone interested

Brilliant- thank you

@CirclesWithinCircles

I don't mean to be rude, but I feel I've wandered into a remedial class here of late. I have no idea why this basic knowledge isn't taught in Scottish schools, but its really difficult to try and fill in the gaps of adult knowledge. This is a feeling I often get when amongst SNP supporters - they're just not very well informed, but they don't think that matters, because Scotland is the best wee country in the world and its unique and special so different rules apply here and its ok, cos the EU will allow it as it has nice mountains and lochs.

Criticise all you like - this is seriously a level at which I struggle to communicate with other adults.

By comparison, I do have plenty of friends in another European country who are taught this sort of thing, along with the importance of having a bicameral parliamentary system, in school. Somethings going seriously wrong in Scotland.

Remedial class. Oh dear. God it must be hard to be you. It's a real shame.

Maybe you should ask MNHQ to set up a section for only very educated and knowledgable people like yourself and then you wouldn't be forced to deal with our plebeian witterings?