Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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@Blurberoo

I shared the article just to illustrate that it is happening here in Scotland. I don’t know enough about the Stonehaven FC situation to know if it’s a problem for other teams or not. I think that when the olympics can go ahead it’ll be quite an eye opener for a lot of people as so many female sports on a global scale include trans women now.

It depends heavily on the sport governing body and whether or not they have taken legal action to protect womens' rights. The governing body of world athletics, the IAAF, certainly have done, and the rules now in place on testosterone levels would exclude the last 3 Olympic medallists in the Rio Olympics 800m from competing (the race won by Caster Semenya where the silver and bronze medallists were also so-called "intersex" (actually thought to be 5-ARDs syndrome).

The IAAF have the financial resources to fund court cases, lawyers and find the detailed evidence and scientific studies required in court to prevent those ineligible on sex grounds from competing. That said, the ruling only applies from 400m-1mile, as that is the events where the detailed evidence thus far produced applies to. Caster Semenya is now apparently targetting the 5000m, although such a range (from 800m-5000m) is unheard of in elite athletics.

In most sports, having a narrow pelvis and wide shoulders is beneficial. In running events in particular, a narrow pelvis creates a less acute Q angle which is always associated with running ability. Women always have a wider Q angle than men because their bone structure develops to accommodate a uterus and ovaries, and furthermore does not have testes producing testosterone. Even female racehorses are given a weight allowance when competing against male racehorses.

This hasn't necessarily had a happy history in sport. The notorious Lauren Jeska, formally the male runner Michael Jamieson, is serving 18 years for the attempted murder of a British Athletics official whom she attacked at his workplace for asking her to provide blood tests to prove that she was still taking hormone suppressants after she became a trans woman. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-39266777.

Lauren's championship winning results have been deleted and the female winners promoted.

Do you know what the hormone supplements the 3 now banned Olympic women's 800m medallists in Rio were supposed to have been taking? HRT. Thats right. The miniscule dose of hormones in HRT are thought to be enough to remove all those sporting advantages of different bone structure and muscularity gained over the years resulting in greater height and narrower pelvic structures and wider shoulders and so on.

Nicola on the news saying its too soon for a green list for holidays.

This is the Labour challenger to Humza Yousaf's constituency seat, Dr. Zubir Ahmed's reply to the Q "... can you confirm that you support women and their sex based rights?"

Link to tweet

"Yes I can, the HCB is another example of lazy SNP legislation, that pits the rights of one group against another. I was in full support of the amendments put forward by @JohannLamont which would have included women as one of those protected groups. I hope this helps!"

I think this could "game on" for Humza!

Not my constituency but I'd vote for him just to get Humza out, but him supporting Johann Lamont's HCB amendments is a very encouraging bonus.

Thars great news @TheShadowyFeminist

Hope he gets in

Why is it only at election time the greens focus on the environment? The rest of the time it’s all about independence and insane pie in the sky plans like universal basic income and the hate crime bill. I’d vote for a party that put environmental policies front and centre. I would never dream of voting for the Scottish Green Party.

Me too @Iwouldratherbesailing. It’s frustrating.

Meanwhile, NS is concentrating on the big stuff and has once again been appeasing the trans lobby, and “choosing her pronouns.”

Though at long last has conceded that they failed the care home residents: a fact that has been self evident for a year, although continually denied.

@WouldBeGood

Though at long last has conceded that they failed the care home residents: a fact that has been self evident for a year, although continually denied.

I saw her interview on Ch4 where she sounds belligerent & not in the least bit remorseful when taking about the failings there. The numbers were shocking. And her dismissal of this decision she's 'fessed up to as a mistake was pretty tone deaf.

She adopted the same tone she does in FMQs when challenged & tries to shout down whoever asks a Q on a topic she knows she's not strong on or has something to hide.

I know exactly that time @TheShadowyFeminist.

She also used it when asked about the finances of independence and the LSE report.

It’s really not impressive or appealing.

The finances of independence will be revealed after the next referendum
so a bit of a mystery to us voters and Nichola too no doubt.

@annabelindajane

The finances of independence will be revealed after the next referendum so a bit of a mystery to us voters and Nichola too no doubt.

About as mysterious as the claim that the EU are magically going to admit an independent Scotland to the EU, despite it not meeting most of the entry criteria and the EU clearly not wanting it!

CirclesWithinCircles: "About as mysterious as the claim that the EU are magically going to admit an independent Scotland to the EU, despite it not meeting most of the entry criteria and the EU clearly not wanting it!"

Absolutely disagree with this, as someone who left Scotland (and the UK, if you like) in the wake of the idiotic Brexit mayhem. Of course a hypothetical independent Scotland could apply to join the EU, but this isn't necessary - Scotland only needs to rejoin the European Single Market, as Northern Ireland has been allowed to do. The Alba Party has come out today in pursuit of this - and I, as a Scot who has lived abroad (in the EU) for years applaud them for having common sense and for caring about Scottish people - which I am increasingly sure that the mainstream Scottish/UK parties do not.

But as we have seen that has caused grave problems in Northern Ireland.

And would be impossible without a hard border with England.

Anyway, I really feel the SNP should be able to tell us their proposals for these things before asking people to vote for a big unknown.

I think it was Statistically or someone else who laid out the ways that Scotland doesn't meet the criteria of full EU membership a few threads back. The 'middle ground' option that Alba pinched from ISP are promoting seems a more sensible approach but I'm limited in my understanding tbh to say if the shortcomings in terms of full EU membership would have any bearing on the options now being put forward by Alba ISP .

There's still a lot of gaps in details & practicality regarding how independence can be achieved. Alba manifesto is due out tomorrow I think? They've also got their PPB tomorrow too. Please god, let it not be anything like the Bruce video 🤦🏻‍♀️

@WouldBeGood

But as we have seen that has caused grave problems in Northern Ireland.

And would be impossible without a hard border with England.

Anyway, I really feel the SNP should be able to tell us their proposals for these things before asking people to vote for a big unknown.

How? I don't give a damn about the SNP, but this idea that there would have to be a hard border between Scotland and rUK is a fantasy. Please either stop propogating it, or provide some evidence for your views. Thanks.

@SageHoney there would have to be if Scotland were to be in a free trade area, or the EU, as freedom of movement would be required, and this is not sustainable with an open border with England.

Even in a common travel area there would need to be checks.

I would like to be in the EU but don’t want a hard border with England. Just look at the lorries heading up and down the 74 daily and think of the hassle.

As I say, the SNP should be able to lay this stuff out for us chapter and verse, but they can’t.

In addition, England would no doubt require a full border to prevent immigrants just driving in. As we know, they’re not pro-immigration!

[quote WouldBeGood]@SageHoney there would have to be if Scotland were to be in a free trade area, or the EU, as freedom of movement would be required, and this is not sustainable with an open border with England.

Even in a common travel area there would need to be checks.

I would like to be in the EU but don’t want a hard border with England. Just look at the lorries heading up and down the 74 daily and think of the hassle.

As I say, the SNP should be able to lay this stuff out for us chapter and verse, but they can’t.[/quote]
But the UK has just such an open border with Ireland now, and reciprocal right of abode between the two countries.

I think they are keen to say there won’t be one as support for independence falls sharply if there is to be such a border. Even NS has not ruled it out, although says it’s not her policies that would cause it.

There would have to be stops and tariffs on goods going one way or the other at the very least.

As we’ve seen with Brexit promises of smooth borders and uninterrupted testing are easy to make but not to fulfil.

What I’m really saying is that the full detail needs to be set out before asking people to vote.

If they just told us, then internet discussions could be on the merits of the proposals instead of on what they would be.

I get so frustrated with this.

I think the EU is a busted flush really, not enough net contributers and it's a huge lumbering beast to get anything done/agreed.

I'm formally Greenland.

Madiuxa Absolutely disagree with this, as someone who left Scotland (and the UK, if you like) in the wake of the idiotic Brexit mayhem. Of course a hypothetical independent Scotland could apply to join the EU, but this isn't necessary - Scotland only needs to rejoin the European Single Market, as Northern Ireland has been allowed to do. The Alba Party has come out today in pursuit of this - and I, as a Scot who has lived abroad (in the EU) for years applaud them for having common sense and for caring about Scottish people - which I am increasingly sure that the mainstream Scottish/UK parties do not.

What muddled up madness is this? Thats unworkable, for many reasons.

It would also prevent Scots from benefitting from the many human and fundamental rights that go along with EU membership, and EU funding for poorer areas, which Scotland has benefitted from significantly in the past. Agriculture wouldn't be included, so anything produced by Scottish farmers would be at a severe disadvantage to those within the EU. As an example, Scottish farmers would have to produce meat to exacting EU standards, and transport it there, without benefitting from the many financial incentives the EU gives to EU farmers.

I also don't think you have a clue about how EU competition law works. There are many pieces of Scottish legislation now that don't comply with EU single market rules because they breach the competition law articles 101 and 102 TFEU, so the Scottish Government would have to remove them in order to be EU-law compliant. There would probably have to be a widespread review of Scottish legislation.

The whole purpose of the single market is to open up the EU to competition from all member states, as competition benefits consumers. It is certainly not there to enable non-member states to trade freely in the EU as a market without a reciprocal gain for EU member states.

I honestly don't think you have the faintest clue what you're trying to talk about here. Ah yes but Norway you will cry. Norway doesn't want to join the EU and its few companies which export to the EU are penalised in ways which make their goods more expensive to produce. But Norway still has to comply with EU law. Norway also has to make a significant financial contribution to the furtherance of fundamental EU rights and values throughout the EU in return for limited EU market access. Generally, we talk about 3 out of the 4 EFTA member states as having this limited access to the EU in return for substantial payments and compliance with most EU law - Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway.

I can't see Scotland wishing to sign up to follow not only the ECHR but the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and EU competition law the minute it leaves the UK, as that is a much more restrictive regime to follow and a very expensive one.

The new Hate Crime bill would have to be scrapped for one thing, and minimum alcohol pricing (which hasn't been very effective anyway) but the way in which local authorities are set up and the control they have over the property market through the licensing system would also have to be changed, as well as the way in which contracts are handed out.

@CirclesWithinCircles

I'm formally Greenland.

Madiuxa Absolutely disagree with this, as someone who left Scotland (and the UK, if you like) in the wake of the idiotic Brexit mayhem. Of course a hypothetical independent Scotland could apply to join the EU, but this isn't necessary - Scotland only needs to rejoin the European Single Market, as Northern Ireland has been allowed to do. The Alba Party has come out today in pursuit of this - and I, as a Scot who has lived abroad (in the EU) for years applaud them for having common sense and for caring about Scottish people - which I am increasingly sure that the mainstream Scottish/UK parties do not.

What muddled up madness is this? Thats unworkable, for many reasons.

It would also prevent Scots from benefitting from the many human and fundamental rights that go along with EU membership, and EU funding for poorer areas, which Scotland has benefitted from significantly in the past. Agriculture wouldn't be included, so anything produced by Scottish farmers would be at a severe disadvantage to those within the EU. As an example, Scottish farmers would have to produce meat to exacting EU standards, and transport it there, without benefitting from the many financial incentives the EU gives to EU farmers.

I also don't think you have a clue about how EU competition law works. There are many pieces of Scottish legislation now that don't comply with EU single market rules because they breach the competition law articles 101 and 102 TFEU, so the Scottish Government would have to remove them in order to be EU-law compliant. There would probably have to be a widespread review of Scottish legislation.

The whole purpose of the single market is to open up the EU to competition from all member states, as competition benefits consumers. It is certainly not there to enable non-member states to trade freely in the EU as a market without a reciprocal gain for EU member states.

I honestly don't think you have the faintest clue what you're trying to talk about here. Ah yes but Norway you will cry. Norway doesn't want to join the EU and its few companies which export to the EU are penalised in ways which make their goods more expensive to produce. But Norway still has to comply with EU law. Norway also has to make a significant financial contribution to the furtherance of fundamental EU rights and values throughout the EU in return for limited EU market access. Generally, we talk about 3 out of the 4 EFTA member states as having this limited access to the EU in return for substantial payments and compliance with most EU law - Liechtenstein, Iceland and Norway.

I can't see Scotland wishing to sign up to follow not only the ECHR but the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and EU competition law the minute it leaves the UK, as that is a much more restrictive regime to follow and a very expensive one.

The new Hate Crime bill would have to be scrapped for one thing, and minimum alcohol pricing (which hasn't been very effective anyway) but the way in which local authorities are set up and the control they have over the property market through the licensing system would also have to be changed, as well as the way in which contracts are handed out.

But Ireland are putting in place minimum pricing and they're in the EU?

@WaxOnFeckOff

I think the EU is a busted flush really, not enough net contributers and it's a huge lumbering beast to get anything done/agreed.

Well, there is that, but it certainly benefits its citizens from giving them very advanced human rights and protecting them and also the consumer and businesses by giving access to a huge marketplace.

You do have to question though whether the financial outlay in achieving such access would be worth it for a small country of less than 5 million people on the northern periphery of Europe, whose main market is England and through whom a large proportion of its good have to travel to reach EU countries anyway.

The checks required for EU goods to transit through a non-EU member state to the EU would be immense. Then they would have to be checked again on leaving the non-EU member state for the EU.

Given that the Scottish Government can barely organise Scottish municipal ferry contracts to anyone's satisfaction and that Shetland and Orcadians have some of the most expensive domestic ferry services on this planet, you have to be somewhat sceptical of the Scottish Government's ability to set up its own international port. The Rosyth passenger ferry to Zeebrugge failed because the Scottish Government didn't subsidise it in the way that most governments subsidise passenger ferry transport services between EU countries.