Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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[quote WouldBeGood]@SempreSuiGenerisI think the opposite too given that DS tells me it’s ludicrous and there’s a backlash on his SM. He’s 12[/quote]
Yes but have you been on tik tok lately 🤯

He is. He’s well aware if the debate from there.

But there’s now stuff about a fifteen year old TW beating adult women at sport and so on.

He’s also sick of being asked if he’s “girl, boy or other” on school surveys.

And because of this; him being off school for nearly a year; and the anti English hate he gets, (he’s half English) he wants to burn the SNP campaign leaflets in our wood burner 🤷🏻‍♀️

@WouldBeGood

And because of this; him being off school for nearly a year; and the anti English hate he gets, (he’s half English) he wants to burn the SNP campaign leaflets in our wood burner 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'd let him. Fire party at yours then?

All welcome @titsintiers 😃🔥

@TheShadowyFeminist - I think the issue of trans is quite interesting in how in has manifested in Scotland compared to England. One of the arguments for independence is the difference in mentality between Scotland and England that this is somehow very fundamental.

What is trans? 30 years ago it was gender disphoria and a very few people had medical treatment. But now it actually arguably covers such a large class of people who can claim "trans" from transsexuals, questioning teenagers, middle aged men with fetishes, it can be a way of life.

All these different tribes as part of trans in public life are not the same. A few are doing something intellectually radical, to say that a man presenting as a woman has identified into being a woman, with the same agonies, requirements for protection, health care, etc. That is from a point of view of public policy, ridiculous because actually it is the biological nature of women that drives the need for single sex protection. Trans can not achieve this, but some ask for that total protection which imo cannot be justified. A different approach would be to look at the evidence of actual need, and then consider what needs to be done for trans people, but that does not entail altering the sex based rights of women (which seems to be the English position and is not going to change).

Its interesting how this has captured public policy in Scotland and associated with the SNP. I think it is part of the emotionalism that has spread in Scotland and transformed its political presentation, which is that nationalism and trans are both about feeling, the perception of being a minority, and the perception of oppression. They sit well together as an intense form of politics, based on feelings, but as with the HCB (which is a terrifying piece of legislation) law cannot be made on the basis of feelings, it must look at need, harm, actual requirements to be effective if it is not just to tyrannise people into "good behaviour" in some arbitrary way.

The SNP manifesto promises to educate people into espousing trans rights which sounds suitably totalitarian.

Its interesting how this has captured public policy in Scotland and associated with the SNP. I think it is part of the emotionalism that has spread in Scotland and transformed its political presentation, which is that nationalism and trans are both about feeling, the perception of being a minority, and the perception of oppression. They sit well together as an intense form of politics, based on feelings, but as with the HCB (which is a terrifying piece of legislation) law cannot be made on the basis of feelings, it must look at need, harm, actual requirements to be effective if it is not just to tyrannise people into "good behaviour" in some arbitrary way.

Lex, I agree with this. There's something about the SNP & the psyche of setting themselves apart as better, more progressive, more radical, achieving 'international best practice' that chases the 'world's firsts' in terms of catchy sound bites & feel good praise. It's gimmicky & superficial because it's not interested in the nuts & bolts of practical application or need beyond feeling that this would be a radical & life affirming difference etc.

Scottish Trans Alliance almost had it in the bag. They were giving talks to their English based counterparts on how to persuade the decision makers behind closed doors & ingratiate themselves with feminist orgs to create 'allyship' to neuter objections to the 'just admin' changes that were being pushed. And it was here on MN & the women posting here that kicked off a resurgence in women's activism that got in the way. The impact MN has had on this cannot be underestimated IMO. FWS grew out of what was happening here (along with some work by radfems who were already up to speed & fighting back).

I think when this has been settled one way or another, it'll make fascinating study to see how the institutional capture took hold.

And I've just read this article

Which includes this:

"The Scottish Government are public about their dismay at losing the number one slot on the ILGA’s index on LGBTI friendly governments to Malta."

Which illustrates the point you've made Lex.

Dear god. That ILGA is nothing I want my country to be part of.

@WouldBeGood

The SNP manifesto promises to educate people into espousing trans rights which sounds suitably totalitarian.

Being educated by SNP supporters in a tiny, increasingly communist country of less than 5 million people isn't something at the top of my agenda. Moving to another country would be an awful lot higher priority! Considering another part of their manifesto is a 4 day working week for the same salary, it looks increasingly like a move out of Scotland will be necessary in the future to get a decent salary in years to come too.

I'm beginning to think that all the crazy incompetent politicos remain in Scotland and the few decent ones either give up or politicise outwith Scotland.

There's something about the SNP & the psyche of setting themselves apart as better, more progressive, more radical, achieving 'international best practice' that chases the 'world's firsts' in terms of catchy sound bites & feel good praise. It's gimmicky & superficial because it's not interested in the nuts & bolts of practical application or need beyond feeling that this would be a radical & life affirming difference etc.

This is why you get things like HCB; drafted so badly and with such a lack of precision. That is absolutely politically driven, but of course it is actually law and Scotland now has to live with it. It has actual consequences. Good parliamentarians look for precision, evidence and detail in policy making; they do not clap it through because it is "progressive" or that it has been adopted by other jurisdictions in similar form.

It’s very low quality legislation on an intellectual level

@WouldBeGood

The SNP manifesto promises to educate people into espousing trans rights which sounds suitably totalitarian.

I think that's pretty concerning in the abstract because of course this is the same party that wants a referendum and hence must be supportive of public debate, yet has passed a bill that will seriously inhibit speech.

You do not have to be right wing to see that this is an issue for everyone; since re-educating people into the correct way of thinking even on trans rather does suggest a tendency to "correct" the wrong view.

This is looking at a review of prisoner & visitor searches by male prison officers claiming to be women, as well as the rules around TW being housed with women in prison.

But this is what caught my eye:

”A woman receiving treatment as a patient or services as a client or consumer is not doing anything that is controlled by the Equality Act 2010, so no question arises whether in insisting on being attended to by a woman she is “discriminating,” or whether there is a valid exemption that excuses her conduct: this is simply a matter of her boundaries, her dignity, her preference, and her consent. No means no.”

The same is not true for a woman in prison or police custody, or sectioned under the Mental Health Act, or for an elderly and otherwise vulnerable woman in a care situation. Her conduct is constrained. She cannot say no And it is through violating these women’s boundaries that gender identity law and policy has often advanced.

This explains far better and more clearly than I can why the SNP's wilful blindness to both the intended & unintended consequences of their commitment to GRA reform is such a serious issue IMO.

Missed out the review is the MOJ in E&W, not Scotland. Scotland's prison review has bee stalled for I think at least 2 years?

@TheShadowyFeminist

Very interesting article -and yes this is England and Wales. It makes some good points, I will take a look at the rest of the site.

However, I think its critical that the policy context changes (thanks MN) - to some extent this is why it is now not worth a political party putting their shoulder behind in England, whereas the opposite conclusion is made in Scotland.

this is why it is now not worth a political party putting their shoulder behind in England, whereas the opposite conclusion is made in Scotland.

Absolutely. It's exactly why Scotland is critical for trans rights advocates. Getting GRA reform through up here will be the wedge needed for elsewhere.

@WouldBeGood

It’s very low quality legislation on an intellectual level

Isn’t it just easy for the SNP to grandstand on this as they can be seen to be politically correct . Is this because they are fiscally illiterate and basically cannot run a small country efficiently. If any SNP supporter can come and tell me exactly what the SNP have done for Scotland I’d be delighted to hear . It’s no good saying it will all be sorted after Indy . I saw an Irish man posting on the Wings site and he said there’s no golden uplands and basically you will get the same “ shit show “ so don’t kid yourselves . By all means consider independence once we have a flourishing economy and the golden uplands are in sight .

Women only spaces are essential and should be a right . I didn’t know about the ILGA until I read Wings - nor that unspeakable Green character with his nappy fetish - certainly would not want him in a changing room - though he’d probably be in baby room - just had that awful thought . Why didn’t Douglas Ross not call PH on that during leadership debate? I think this highlights the need for women only spaces more than anything .

Sorry bit of a rant but thank you to ladies who explain it all so well .

My SIL sent this pic. He is very into fitness and has a lot of his gym members do weight training. This is Matt now Janie Kroc women’s weight lifter.

Just no no no.

MN if the above post offends please delete.

Is there a Tory manifesto yet? I can't find one anywhere.

I don't think it's anything to do with nationalism per se. You see the Labour and Lib Dem TRAs are just as extreme as their counterparts in SNP and SGP, although their parties are unionist. In fact all the “trans rights” activists seem to have way more in common with each other than with other members of the respective parties they have infiltrated.

Latest update on the SNP member who threatened Joanna Cherry

Link to DR article

Psychiatric reports requested so still not sentenced.

And still tumbleweed from 'feminist to my fingertips' Sturgeon. 🤨

@Coquohvan a picture tells a thousand stories