Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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@forfucksakenett

I suppose the answer to that would be that some transwomen believe they are women. Some accept they are transwomen and will never cross that line.

Similarly gay men and male victims of domestic abuse wouldn't seek safety in a women's refuge because they don't believe they are women whereas some transwomen do.

They're all male. That's an important factor that needs consideration when managing single sex spaces/services/provision.

An individual's belief about their 'inner gender' doesn't negate the reality of anyone actually being male, especially when it comes to women's need/want/preference to have single sex spaces/services/provision etc.

Yes, I get the feeling that that segment of the SNP manifesto (thanks for the colick forfuckssake ) isn't really saying what they hope people think it's saying. I can't see how both the "protections for women won't be affected" and also "we want to make changes to the GRA" can both stand - as people have pointed out previously. (Never mind it seems that their "working with" all the relevant groups to come to a solution is just a screen, as it seems they have already decided that those "necessary changes" have to be made).

Though as shadowy and sempre have said, if they decide "woman" includes "transwoman" then, yes, they can both be done. Despite that somewhat throwing the baby out with the bathwater to say the least. And it seems that anyone suggesting that, actually, they don't agree with it, can be conveniently branded transphobic and not entering into the "discussion" in good faith. It is all a bit sinister. Which is a shame because I know the majority of people it is aiming to help wouldn't want to distress or harm women in the process and do genuinely just want to be accepted. But then you get people like in the wings article, and I really don't want them influencing any kind of policy, let alone one that may well affect me, my family and friends, and women and children in general

Yes but that's not the world we live in @TheShadowyFeminist. You can carry on with that type of speech if you like but all that's going to happen there is that you will be accused of misgendering people and branded a bigot. Are you scientifically correct? Yes you are. Are you socially correct? Maybe/ maybe not. Is this all a bit Kafkaesque? Absolutely. But the horse has bolted the stable door.

To be clear I do not fully agree with that but that is the world we are in. Every political party is accepting to some extent of the idea of self ID. One only has to glance across the number of people now with pronouns in their bios, linked ins and emails. I'm not sure where you work or what you do with your time but the number of folk now pushing the limits of gender identity in their every day dress, make up and behaviour is staggering.

Where are all the high profile feminists protecting these single sex spaces? I don't see them. JK Rowling has been branded a bigot. Caitlin Moran issued a grovelling apology after moaning about her womb (or similar - I can't exactly remember) and Judith butler et al are Twaw as far as I can see. Posie Parker, of course, but she's been completely sidelined as a bigot. If we rail against these issues using language such as this we will be similarly sidelined and dismissed.

I get that you want to protect single sex spaces and I see that you feel it very passionately. While I don't feel so strongly about these places because I believe we have largely shared them with transwomen for years I do feel strongly about protecting women's sport. I'm also uncomfortable with medical language changing. You are not going to do it as you are though because I would assume that in this woke world the way that you express yourself will be perceived as transphobic.

I think the greater problem that needs seriously dealt with is people like that horror you posted about. I genuinely cannot believe what I have read. They are not representative of any of the transwomen that I know. The fact that PH has validated this person is absolutely abhorrent and I sincerely hope that these tweets have been reported to the police. Has PH ever been asked about this? It genuinely makes me ill.

When I think of transwomen I get a picture in my head of someone I know. Someone genuine and someone lovely. It really is no wonder that if people are conflating transwomen with that creep that they are so angry and upset.

They are the problem. The strange fetishists and the TERF punching lunatics. The aggressive shouty 'call me ma'am' types.

Ordinary trans people are mostly just normal people trying to get on. The actions of some maniacs shouldn't impinge on that.

Even taking out the trans element, how have we got to the stage where a mainstream political party (albeit a small one) considers it appropriate to have someone with an openly displayed baby/nappy fetish in a senior position on a committee which influences policy making? How has that become acceptable?

all that's going to happen there is that you will be accused of misgendering people and branded a bigot.

Yup, that's the SNP & the greens MO. Defending women's rights that are established in law means you must be smeared & shamed. Because they can't actually discuss or debate any points made - it's lazy & abusive & ultimately won't endear anyone to the 'cause'.

It's remarkable that 2 so-called 'progressive' parties are happy to condone this behaviour. But Scottish politics is full of weird power mad oddballs who support abusive negative & destructive politics & still do quite well out of it. Those with integrity are becoming vanishingly rare, and are themselves attacked too.

The whole thing is a disastrous shit show & absolutely nowt to be proud of.

I’m really disgusted with the SNP and Greens on this. They have made it clear women do not matter.

I really hope anyone who cares about women’s rights votes for someone else or spoils their ballot.

I have some concerns about grc too but to say it's a problem exclusive to 'Scottish politics' is disingenuous. Labour are even worse on this - just look at MP Rosie Duffield's twitter some time to see the abuse she gets and constant calls for her sacking. Johann Lamont was a strong voice in Scottish Labour but pretty much a lone one, and now sadly retired. SNP at least have voices like Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine bringing a more balanced view. I feel that the fact SNP put a pause on this and listened more to womens' views is a hopeful sign that some balance can be struck.

The SNP is unequivocally awful on this.

Sturgeon et al have forced Joanna Cherry to the sidelines and made rules to prevent her standing as an MSP, and to try to get rid of Joan McAlpine.

how have they tried to get rid of Joan McAlpine?

With the self ID crap they pushed through against legal advice

SNP supporters appear to be quite ill-informed on what they're doing.

The SNP NEC rules adopted on giving no. 1 spot on the regional list to either a self ID'd disabled or BAME candidate adversely impacts Joan McAlpine's position on re-election. She's got a higher bar to clear in getting elected as the constituency candidate, given the area & the fact it was Tory at the last election. And she's not automatically 1st on the list despite her overwhelming popularity with the region responsible for voting on list candidates. She could well not get back in as a result of the list candidate rule changes made against legal advice.

Considering how another late rule change scuppered Joanna Cherry's plans to stand as an MSP in this election, the agenda of the SNP is clearly to gerrymander processes to get rid of women who speak up to defend women's rights.

* SNP supporters appear to be quite ill-informed on what they're doing.

I agree with this.

Online and in real life.

DP supports them but has no clue what’s going on with this stuff. It’s frustrating.

@happygolurkey

I have some concerns about grc too but to say it's a problem exclusive to 'Scottish politics' is disingenuous. Labour are even worse on this - just look at MP Rosie Duffield's twitter some time to see the abuse she gets and constant calls for her sacking. Johann Lamont was a strong voice in Scottish Labour but pretty much a lone one, and now sadly retired. SNP at least have voices like Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine bringing a more balanced view. I feel that the fact SNP put a pause on this and listened more to womens' views is a hopeful sign that some balance can be struck.

Exactly.

Joan is now second on the list in South Scotland, with first place going to Emma Harper because she is disabled (diabetes). Emma is woke, as is third on the list Paul Wheelhouse.

And now I'm stuck, I do want independence and was just about willing to vote SNP1. But I also want Joan, but not Emma or Paul... And I want to vote Alba because women's rights too!

I have some concerns about grc too but to say it's a problem exclusive to 'Scottish politics' is disingenuous.

Again, you seem quite oblivious to what is going on here. Wales is pretty bad on GRA but their journey on this lags far behind Scotland. E&W covered by UK parliament has rejected self ID. Scotland is by far the worst of all, as they've implemented various policy & legislative changes prior to any law change, acting as though the law is already self ID, and are determined to push through GRA changes despite the lack of support for it (from polls etc.).

The wedge here is being able to get some form of self ID legislated, which the draft bill as it stands creates a 'Gretna green' situation where anyone in the UK will take up the option the SNP are pushing. And then the resultant pressure applied on UKGov to adopt self ID in law as Scottish GRA reform makes it effectively UK self ID in all but name.

Scotland is the focus of many of the LGBT orgs pushing self ID because it's easier to capture smaller administrations & push through GRA reform than the attempts via UK parliament. And because it heaps on pressure for UKGov to follow suit.

Alba are just mental with the motley crew of candidates with unpleasant views and legal difficulties, and the horrific Robert the Bruce crap.

*SNP supporters appear to be quite ill-informed on what they're doing.

The SNP NEC rules adopted on giving no. 1 spot on the regional list to either a self ID'd disabled or BAME candidate adversely impacts Joan McAlpine's position on re-election.*

Nicola Sturgeon is in the exact same position - are they trying to get rid of her too?

here we go again, 'no-one understands anything except me'

Nicola is quite likely to win her constituency seat.

Nicola Sturgeon was behind the machinations to get rid of women who speak up against her trans ideology @happygolurkey.

No one said you didn’t understand but you yourself were clear you didn’t know what has been going on.

E&W covered by UK parliament has rejected self ID.

yes, ok, you have a point - yes the current UK government has rejected self-id.(personally i think this is largely down to Liz Truss though, Tory's were universally in favour of it before she came into the picture - and did you hear them all line up to scold her during the debate?). If I lived in England though, personally, I wouldn't be able to vote Tory just on that basis because there is literally not another policy of their's I agree with. And it's the same in Scotland. I think there will be a lot of people like me (obviously not on Scotnet). So that's why, from my perspective, I think the situation isn't unique to Scotland. If I lived in England I'd have the exact same predicament. As I say, have a look at Rosie Duffield's twitter timeline. Labour expelled 300 women in one fowl swoop a couple of years ago for belonging to a group discussing sex-based rights. They are committed to self-id and said that anyone who disagrees can leave

Does anyone actually think that self id won't be a thing everywhere in the western world in a few years?

I just genuinely can't see it going any other direction.

Both Joan McAlpine & Joanna Cherry's experiences of online targeted harassment & abuse mirrors that of Rosie Duffield. And even when the abuse & harassment comes from within the SNP, Sturgeon pushes NEC amendments to elbow those 2 women out of her next parliament, rather than offer any support or solidarity or even acknowledging the harassment they've endured. She endorses it by her silence on it.

Scotland is in this position because Sturgeon supports GRA reform - E&W are looking at this as a culture war & weighing up the political cost & haven't yet been able to resolve that calculation one way or another (yet). Sturgeon is proceeding onwards despite the political cost as she's already calculated that she can afford the cost as she's in a strong position to take a hit & not lose the power to maintain her aims.

It's hardly a ringing endorsement for either the SNP or Sturgeon that she's so blinkered in her commitment to this that she'll push it through regardless of both the intended & unintended negative consequences for women & girls in Scotland, or the wider political cost.

Nicola is quite likely to win her constituency seat.

yes. if she did lose to Anas Sarwar though (he must think there's a chance with him being a local lad etc) she is not top of the list as Roza Salih is. So, if this is all part of her 'machination' she's put herself at a bit of a risk.

i know about the NEC change WouldBeGood just haven't seen proof that it was all brought in deliberately to get rid of Joan McAlpine as is suggested - have you heard Joan McAlpine say that? She is posting tweets supporting Nicola Sturgeon every day

@forfucksakenett

Does anyone actually think that self id won't be a thing everywhere in the western world in a few years?

I just genuinely can't see it going any other direction.

I suppose when you think the impact on women is of little worth, I can see why you'd think that. But I think the number of women who will be raped/beaten/prostituted/killed in prisons will be a hard factor to ignore. Rape/assaults have already happened in Canada & the moves in the US to transfer 100s of male prisoners to female prisons on the basis of self ID will accelerate that inevitability. Denmark is having to rehearse their mixed sex prison model as women were being raped/prostituted as a result.

Women will have to suffer huge, serious & even fatal harms before this advancement of self ID will halt. That's not something I relish.

It’s really hopeless when all the arguments are just the same old SNP good/England bad.