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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

999 replies

TheShadowyFeminist · 06/04/2021 15:46

New 🧵

OP posts:
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forfucksakenett · 14/04/2021 23:36

@Selkiesarereal

Because it’s not for women to solve as we’re being basically told to budge up and accommodate regardless of our distress, why are we the ones to lose out on our hard won rights.

Furthermore to go back to my post way back, it’s not just about toilets it’s all the other and in many cases far more important stuff that we have. Where is the line?

Yes @Selkiesarereal you outlined several of the basic issues and I agreed with you that toilets were the very least of it.
TheShadowyFeminist · 14/04/2021 23:37

Actually at least one poster has admitted that the distress of TW is an acceptable outcome.

Who said this? Can you quote that?

OP posts:
forfucksakenett · 14/04/2021 23:42

That’s the tough part but I think yes. Actually that’s a really difficult thing to write but yes.

In response to the question 'so do we then disregard the feelings of transwomen?'

I haven't posted the username because I appreciate her honesty, completely understand why she thinks that and don't want her to think I am attempting to personally shame her.

SempreSuiGeneris · 14/04/2021 23:46

Women's protected rights only make sense where the definition of woman is similarly protected.

TheShadowyFeminist · 14/04/2021 23:49

Would you deny a transwoman with a passport that says she's female a place in a woman's only ward in a hospital?

You appear to have zero concept of the vulnerability of women who are in hospital. Yes, a male person of any gender ID should never be on a female ward. Why are you even suggesting this? Do you revel in the distress of vulnerable women or something?

OP posts:
Graffitiqueen · 14/04/2021 23:57

[quote forfucksakenett]@Graffitiqueen If you read through the posts a poster said that her mother was distressed at being forced to be in a mixed ward.

That poster and others also want transwomen to be in presumably either a male ward or a mixed transgender ward (a third space presumably with both trans men and trans women).

My question was why does the emotional distress of a woman 'trump' that of a transwoman? Why do posters continually refer to women's distress but minimise trans women's experiences as 'hurt feelings' or potential 'offence taken'? [/quote]
So how do we solve this? Transwomen in women's wards =potentially 51% of the population distressed and in danger . Transwomen in men's wards=potentially 49% of the population distressed 0.1% of the population in danger. . Transwomen in third spaces =0.1% of the population feeling invalidated. 🤔

forfucksakenett · 15/04/2021 00:09

Okay @TheShadowyFeminist I think that if you had read my posts you would know that I really do not revel in the distress of women. What a really shitty accusation.

I'm not suggesting this like it's some great idea I've had and want to try out. I'm mentioning it because, from what I can gather, since 2005 transwomen have been able to change the sex marker on their legal documents and have been accessing women only spaces as legal women.

forfucksakenett · 15/04/2021 00:14

@Graffitiqueen I have no answers. Nobody does and that's the problem surely. It feels like a genuinely unsolvable problem.

The third space wouldn't just necessarily be transwomen either would it? Would it include trans men as well or is there to be four spaces? Then it becomes a bit untenable surely?

Graffitiqueen · 15/04/2021 00:27

[quote forfucksakenett]@Graffitiqueen I have no answers. Nobody does and that's the problem surely. It feels like a genuinely unsolvable problem.

The third space wouldn't just necessarily be transwomen either would it? Would it include trans men as well or is there to be four spaces? Then it becomes a bit untenable surely?

[/quote]
So we have to make a decision based on the least worst option which is clearly 0.1% of the population are "invalidated"

TheShadowyFeminist · 15/04/2021 00:30

@forfucksakenett

Okay *@TheShadowyFeminist* I think that if you had read my posts you would know that I really do not revel in the distress of women. What a really shitty accusation.

I'm not suggesting this like it's some great idea I've had and want to try out. I'm mentioning it because, from what I can gather, since 2005 transwomen have been able to change the sex marker on their legal documents and have been accessing women only spaces as legal women.

I can't fathom you out at all - your wilful ignorance over how males being included in female wards just seems deliberately obtuse & to keep asking 'would you exclude this male' when the entire point of female only is to exclude males irrespective of any claimed gender ID because women need & are entitled to female only provision especially when vulnerable in hospital.

How many more scenarios can you conjure up before it sinks in? How many more ways can you imply everyone except you is a 'transphobic bigot'? Or is the point to keep needling, as you've done in earlier threads, & put people off posting here?

It's not women's responsibility to accommodate males who feel distress because they're male & don't want to be. Doesn't matter what reason you come up with - passport being changed, you are blind to anyone's sex in any situation, they really feel like they are women, the law creates a legal fiction, they've had cosmetic surgery or taken synthetic hormones - none of these reasons change the fact when women are vulnerable, in hospital, male patients should be nowhere near women's wards & as cruel as you seem to think it is that women should be allowed to maintain their privacy & dignity especially when vulnerable & ill in hospital, your overwhelming concern for males of a variety of gender IDs does come across as revelling in women's distress.

OP posts:
forfucksakenett · 15/04/2021 00:47

I'm not willfully ignorant I'm actually trying to learn as I've said many times.

I come up with scenarios, the same scenario actually of a genuine trans woman trying to live her life, because this is an issue about real people trying to live their lives.

My posts are not intended to be needling. It is you who has resorted to insults and accusations.

How can you possibly know that I'm putting people off posting? Why on earth would I have that power?

You seem to have no sympathy towards TW whatsoever and I admittedly do find that tunnel vision difficult to understand. I certainly don't feel superior about it and not do I think that everyone is a transphobic bigot except me Hmm

My feelings are entirely conflicted as I've explained several times yet you seem very keen to cast me as the woman hating panto villain. 🤷🏻‍♀️ that's fine for you to think that but it certainly doesn't make it true.

titsintiers · 15/04/2021 07:27

So......does anyone know if there is a place to compare manifestos?

WouldBeGood · 15/04/2021 07:47

I think this is really weird and I’m not engaging any more. I feel a bit stupid as I have been duped, I think into responding.

Yes, @titsintiers I too would like to see some detailed policies.. there was mention of some on the election thread so I’ll take a look and also try to find out more.

forfucksakenett · 15/04/2021 08:12

This whole thing is utterly bizarre. First shadowy's aggressive responses and now this. Duped? How could you possibly have been. There was a controversial and difficult issue being discussed and you offered your own perfectly valid opinions?

Yet again a thread in Scotnset turns weird because some posters can't cope with an alternative view that doesn't fit exactly into their own narrative. Hey ho! Onwards and upwards.

Selkiesarereal · 15/04/2021 08:18

@forfucksakenett you can actually say that it is me revelling in the distress of others if that’s what you want to imply but what you were actually asking was a Sophie’s choice type scenario on who’s distress is most important, women or trans women and of course I’m reality I would hate to cause any distress to anyone.

If you are being genuine in trying to understand this, you may be at the point I was at a few years ago if let’s be kind. But then you start to ask, where is the line, either they are women and all that goes with it or they are not, which is it as it appears that there is no mid point as that creates othering.

This is why many women are not happy to give up our protections and our distress just to accommodate others, it’s not our problem to solve.

But if you do have a solution rather than accuse me of revelling in the distress of others then please do tell.

I won’t be engaging further as a do feel that you are possibly being a little disingenuous but if your not, hopefully mine and others posts will help you see the extent of the issue.

forfucksakenett · 15/04/2021 08:27

I didn't accuse you of revelling I the distress of others. I was accused of revelling in the distress of women and I said that wasn't the case and at least one poster had said TW distress was an acceptable outcome. Although I don't agree with you I respect your honesty.

Yes I'm completely genuine and yes my position is to try and be as kind to everyone. I'm not at the point yet to dismiss the feelings of TW as les important.

I've said consistently that not only do I not have answers I am concerned that there isn't an answer.

WouldBeGood · 15/04/2021 08:30

Can’t see any other manifestos?

forfucksakenett · 15/04/2021 08:34

I'll say it again. I'm completely genuine. I just have a potentially different view about some aspects of this issue.

I haven't accused anyone of anything. I haven't insulted anyone. All I've done is ask questions that I genuinely wanted peoples' opinions on or answer to.

Happy to draw a line under it but I think some posters need to seriously get it into their heads that offering an alternative viewpoint does not equal malicious troll.

titsintiers · 15/04/2021 08:37

@WouldBeGood

Can’t see any other manifestos?
Which is ridiculous given we go to the polls very soon
StatisticallyChallenged · 15/04/2021 08:37

I think, for me, safety comes above validation. I can understand why some TW would feel unsafe in a male space, but to me the solution then has to be a separate safe space for them - so in a hospital situation that would probably be a private room. Because giving full access to women's spaces (especially on any sort of self id basis) is just kicking the risk downhill isn't it? 1 (identifiable) TW feels unsafe in a ward of men so gets put in a female ward where however many women get to feel unsafe instead? It doesn't make sense. And I say identifiable to avoid a "passing" debate - for the purposes of setting policy I think it's sensible to assume this as it seems most are identifiable.

As I understand it exemptions in the EA would permit exclusion of a GRC holding TW in appropriate circumstances but a) it's actually a small proportion who hold GRC and b) I'm not sure GRA as it stands is sensible.

StatisticallyChallenged · 15/04/2021 08:38

@WouldBeGood

Can’t see any other manifestos?
You'd think these would be a priority to produce!
Selkiesarereal · 15/04/2021 08:54

Ok, taking that you are genuine and as you have posted frequently on this post I will take at face value but there is huge amounts of troll hunting on mumsnet on this very subject and it would be easy to take some of this out context and feed into those people. Some actually want mumsnet closed down, with advertisers targeted because it allows this debate.

It is not easy but women do need to understand that it’s much much more than toilets and changing rooms.

Anyway, back to the manifestos or lack of them!

titsintiers · 15/04/2021 09:03

Absolutely stats, I can only see the greens. And whilst I think some of those headlines look good, I absolutely can't vote for them, for the same reasons as other folk on here.

forfucksakenett · 15/04/2021 09:06

I've been on MN for years. I've lurked on the feminism boards for a while as well. I appreciate you acting as gatekeeper but I'm not a troll.

I feel like I have a basic understanding of all the issues you've outlined @Selkiesarereal my problem is that I can't get them to square in my head particularly when I put it in the context of real life trans people if you see what I mean. This is all in my posts.

Happy to love on but keen to defend myself also. Not that I should have to I suppose.

forfucksakenett · 15/04/2021 09:12

Move on