Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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convincing people who make patient policies that anyone who expresses discomfort or anxiety or distress with mixed sex provision only does that because they're prejudiced.

Wasn't it only a few years ago that they finally removed mixed sex wards, because it was recognised to be unsafe/against dignity?

I’d be very upset to be in a ward with men to be honest. I’d feel even more vulnerable than one does anyway in hospital.

I've been in this position actually - I had to have "day" surgery when my baby was only 5 weeks old. And I was breastfeeding. Surgery went fine but I took an absolute age to come round (teetotal, apparently makes your liver slower to process the anaesthetic) and by evening I was still pretty much out of it. After surgery they take you to the day surgery ward, which is mixed sex (and massive, probably 20-30 beds) and very open.

Anyway, it looked like me (and baby) were going to have to stay over and I was really really uncomfortable - my bed was at the end facing down the ward, then the next bed was at a right angle to me with a guy in it who basically was (whether he liked it or not) getting a proper fucking eyefull of me attempting to feed whilst half out of it. But we weren't allowed to close the curtains properly.

I was next to the nurses desk and I could hear them taking calls from all over the hospital booking people in to stay over - they clearly used the day surgery ward (which got away with being mixed sex because it wasn't meant to be overnight) as an overflow from everywhere and anywhere.

There was no fucking way I was staying. Even once I woke up they wouldn't let me out until I'd produced enough urine - I went to the loo, squeezed out what I could and topped it up from the sink

Maybe the answer to the lack of toilets is to self id as men and use theirs!

[quote sessell]@circleswithincircles re your post earlier today about community centres being built with fewer women's toilets because of the belief that "we don't use them as often." You need to read Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez. There is a whole chapter on toilet design and how women go more often and spend longer on the toilet for many reasons! And yet there continue to be fewer women's toilets - and longer queues. It sounds as if you work in or with planners - give them copies. It's an excellent award-winning book. [/quote]
Oh believe me, we've tried. Its just that the typically misogynistic, lazy and old fashioned council officials whom we are trying to advise won't listen to logic. Womens' toilets are the easy sacrifice when money and space are important, particularly with regards to sports facilities.

Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez
Excellent book.

Provision for trans people is needed & necessary & I'd never suggest that's not the case. But expecting women to just give up the boundaries they are entitled to in law, for the sake of hurt feelings? Nope.

Is it just about hurt feelings though or is it about transwomen feeling safe too?

Why are biological women allowed to be distressed at having to share spaces with people not of their choosing but transwomen aren't?

Because it’s perfectly reasonable not to share your women’s rights and space with men.

And it’s impossible to choose where to draw the line otherwise.

@WouldBeGood fair enough. Where do you draw the line between what's a man and what's a woman?

I don't see why Stonewall can't spend some of its millions on providing refuges for trans people.

@forfucksakenett

Provision for trans people is needed & necessary & I'd never suggest that's not the case. But expecting women to just give up the boundaries they are entitled to in law, for the sake of hurt feelings? Nope.

Is it just about hurt feelings though or is it about transwomen feeling safe too?

Why are biological women allowed to be distressed at having to share spaces with people not of their choosing but transwomen aren't?

You cannot square this circle. TW feeling scared or unsafe - it's not women creating that environment & creating additional safe provision space for TW, make it inclusive of those who are happy with mixed sex provision, in addition to, not in place of, female only provision would solve that problem. The support for trans inclusion isn't negligible & I'd expect anyone who advocates for that would be more than happy to avail themselves of those inclusive spaces/provision to join with TW to make them work (because without those extra numbers from trans allies, then it's uneconomical & does that 'othering' thing too).

Women aren't support humans to everyone else, to the detriment of their own needs & requirements.

@BlackForestCake

I don't see why Stonewall can't spend some of its millions on providing refuges for trans people.

This. ☝️ Absolutely this.

Born a man = always a man

@WouldBeGood

Born a man = always a man

But in real life terms, and I'm aware certain posters would be jumping on me to call me juvenile, but how would you know?

It's easy enough to say that but in real life how do you 'Police' it? For want of a better word.

I’m talking in terms of the law

Women aren't support humans to everyone else, to the detriment of their own needs & requirements.

I didn't say that they were. I am making the point that transwomen have a right to a safe space as well.

@forfucksakenett

Women aren't support humans to everyone else, to the detriment of their own needs & requirements.

I didn't say that they were. I am making the point that transwomen have a right to a safe space as well.

So argue for it. Help create it, throw your weight behind it and pledge you'll use it in allyship. Additional inclusive provision for the small group that's TW really needs the weight of numbers to make it a viable option.

That surely solves the entire problem you're concerned with?

@TheShadowyFeminist why would I put my weight behind an alternative safe space when I'm happy to welcome transwomen into women's spaces?

@forfucksakenett

Provision for trans people is needed & necessary & I'd never suggest that's not the case. But expecting women to just give up the boundaries they are entitled to in law, for the sake of hurt feelings? Nope.

Is it just about hurt feelings though or is it about transwomen feeling safe too?

Why are biological women allowed to be distressed at having to share spaces with people not of their choosing but transwomen aren't?

Where are you getting this idea that women are "allowed" to be distressed?!?!

Only transwomen are allowed to be distressed. Women's distress is irrelevant. It doesn't matter because women are bottom of the pile.

[quote forfucksakenett]@TheShadowyFeminist why would I put my weight behind an alternative safe space when I'm happy to welcome transwomen into women's spaces? [/quote]
Do you have the right to give away all woman's rights? Women need female only provision. The law provides that right. You are happy to share your space/services/provision making your preference mixed sex. You can't have female only in mixed sex space, so you can absolutely put your weight behind your preference & be that ally you clearly want to be, and not give other women's rights away at the same time.

Have at it. Problem you have concerns over solved.

@Graffitiqueen If you read through the posts a poster said that her mother was distressed at being forced to be in a mixed ward.

That poster and others also want transwomen to be in presumably either a male ward or a mixed transgender ward (a third space presumably with both trans men and trans women).

My question was why does the emotional distress of a woman 'trump' that of a transwoman? Why do posters continually refer to women's distress but minimise trans women's experiences as 'hurt feelings' or potential 'offence taken'?

@TheShadowyFeminist of course I don't but you asked why I wasn't out campaigning for a third space and being an 'ally'. I've explained to you why.

Because the solution to women's distress has already been secured in law via single sex exceptions.

The solution to TW's distress - additional inclusive provision you & TW want.

No one here is saying that TW should be distressed. Your answer to that problem creates distress for women. You need to find another answer because women are not support humans to solve TW problems they experience.

Because it’s not for women to solve as we’re being basically told to budge up and accommodate regardless of our distress, why are we the ones to lose out on our hard won rights.

Furthermore to go back to my post way back, it’s not just about toilets it’s all the other and in many cases far more important stuff that we have. Where is the line?

This is obviously going to rumble on as a contentious issue so hopefully we'll find out tomorrow whether Sturgeon will go all out & pledge to destroy what rights women are still clinging onto, or if they'll keep it vague & make out they had to compromise to green demands of enshrining the Yogyakarta principles in scots law to form a government.

SNP manifesto out tomorrow.

Actually at least one poster has admitted that the distress of TW is an acceptable outcome.

So as it stands, a biological man can live as a woman and apply to have their passport, birth certificate etc markers changed. That person is then legally a woman yes? So she can access female only spaces.

If I was a TW with a birth certificate that said I was female, I felt like a female and I looked like a female then why would I go to a TW specific space when I think I am a woman?

Your proposition is very sensible if people were happy to be defined as specifically trans and of course many are. Lots of trans people on Twitter advocating this. On the flip side though, many are not and unless I am mistaken (which to be fair I I often am when it comes to the law) then legally these people can, with a bit of effort, change their legal sex marker. Have I misunderstood this?

Would you deny a transwoman with a passport that says she's female a place in a woman's only ward in a hospital? And if so, how on earth would you expect to be able to police this?