Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

[TheShadowyFeminist]

New 🧵

This is a really interesting discussion by the way - thanks to everyone explaining the issues! It's something I've not really thought about in detail before.

I'm like forfucksake in that I end up very conflicted when working through things! Part of me is all in favour of making things that bit easier for vulnerable groups and minorities, but then, as others have said - where do you draw the line? We can't say "twaw when it comes to some types of changing rooms and toilets but not for sport or prisons or xxxx". And why is it another vulnerable group (women) that has to give up their space to accommodate it? (I assume the same goes for men accommodating transmen, but that never seems to be considered - presumably as transmen are the only minority in that situation, so doubly vulnerable). Yes, a "third space" could be created, but that still ends up with the "othering" issue.

Im sure there's more to it (probably me being simplistic because I'm not really believing in gender again!) but I don't know why we don't put more emphasis on broadening what is "acceptable" for men and women. If TW "feel like they are a woman" - what aspect of that feeling can't be met by being male? It's obviously not going to be "I feel like I need to go into a woman's toilet" or "I want people to refer to me as a woman" (those are effects, rather than causes) or even "I feel like I need to have lower pay and less responsibility because I might go off and get pregnant"... But if it's "I fancy men", why not identify as a gay male? If it's "I like posh hair and heels and dresses" ( because what woman doesn't? Not a sexist assumption at all... ) why not wear those things as a man... and lobby for that to become more socially acceptable rather than lobbying to be allowed "to be a woman" in order to be allowed to wear them. If you want more delicate features, have surgery to have more delicate features as a man, and accept that you may be given a mixture of pronouns as a result. If you are wrongly pronouned, you can correct people without it being a huge insult, or not bother if you don't care.

DS is often assumed to be a girl because his hair is crazy long... He just says I'm a boy, but I have long hair. He doesn't take it badly because he knows there's nothing bad about being assumed to be a girl. That may change as he gets older of course, in which case he can take action to avoid it- but he's happy at the moment.

I'm sure I'm horribly naive, but I just have difficulty understanding what "feeling like the wrong sex" actually means.

@StatisticallyChallenged

Not sure we're even allowed cis these days - I've seen a few bloggers saying that post surgical TW/TM are now cis.

To start with it was the words man/woman and everyone kind of budged up and distinguished sexes using male/female

Then that wasn't ok, because if you're a woman you're female and if you feel like a woman you are a woman thereforw if you are a woman with a penis it's a female penis (or something). We had to be cis

But even that is now being appropriated- because the reality is that there is a subset of TRA who just do not accept us having any separate definition, any word that describes a category which excludes TW/TM

Aaaarrrrgh! You what now?!

The language creep in this area is a huge issue. It's often in response to a counter argument that can't be challenged so words start being added/changed/mean different things & it's all very confusing.

The woman with a trans history is just another creep into blurring lines to make discussion & clarity as difficult as possible. We're still talking about males & it's yet another way to obscure facts & reality when you get into why this matters for single sex exceptions in the EA2010 etc.

Lived sex instead of lived gender came off the back of coherent arguments at the Census committee hearings on the sex Q & the need to be clear & distinct over sex & gender as they're not the same thing.

Legal discrimination permitted under the EA2010 single sex exceptions are 'transphobic bigotry', when they're intended to account for the needs of women.

It's like being constantly kept in a state of confusion so you can't keep up/argue your case.

For Women Scotland are appealing the decision to define men as women for the purposes of equality legislation.

It's like being constantly kept in a state of confusion so you can't keep up/argue your case.

Or it's just a bunch of people mostly with good intentions trying to sort some complicated shit out?

The Scottish Government must be setting some kind of world record for being sued by its own citizens...

@forfucksakenett

It's like being constantly kept in a state of confusion so you can't keep up/argue your case.

Or it's just a bunch of people mostly with good intentions trying to sort some complicated shit out?

I think there's a fundamental problem though where, in essence, Group A want to be in Group B, and Group B want to be able to define themselves separately from Group A. Some of A and B are happy to think of themselves as subgroups of Group C, but other members of A don't accept any form of exclusion from B or definition of B which excludes A.

And I don't know how you sort that.

Exactly.

Me neither. It's not going to go away though I don't think.

I don't think an issue has ever confused me more.

You're confused because you have swallowed the idea that a man can somehow be a woman. All the rest of the problems are based on the acceptance of this fundamental untruth.

Once you accept that, you must also accept its consequences, or you are not being consistent.

That is why, after thinking it through to its logical conclusion, we come back and deny that men can be women. Whether people think that is harsh or not.

@forfucksakenett

Hmmm.

To recap. A pp said that women's safe spaces should be free of penises and women might be triggered by males and penises being in that space.

I made the point that it would in almost all cases be impossible to truly know if a transwoman had a penis or not. Which I still believe to be a valid point. We wouldn't know and it's none of our business.

At some point you got irked and annoyed by this and said that you could tell if the difference between a tranwoman and biological woman (good for you btw because I can't).

I think you can btw , we lived in Far East for a couple of years and however beautiful and light boned the “girls” were , there was something just not quite right . Am sure in the street it wouldn’t be noticed but close up in a changing room It would be a different matter.

@BlackForestCake

I don't think an issue has ever confused me more.

You're confused because you have swallowed the idea that a man can somehow be a woman. All the rest of the problems are based on the acceptance of this fundamental untruth.

Once you accept that, you must also accept its consequences, or you are not being consistent.

That is why, after thinking it through to its logical conclusion, we come back and deny that men can be women. Whether people think that is harsh or not.

Well according to the law and according to a whole bunch of people a man can become a woman and vice versa.

I'm not sure if me having 'swallowed' it or not is going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things tbh. I don't think this is going to get dialled back.

But yes I suppose you are correct. My problem does seem to stem from the fact I have a bit of an acceptance of this.

If I were to adopt your view I would have an entirely different problem though. It wouldn't solve anything. I would just be very frustrated and upset because of what was going on around me and my views would arguably be pretty offensive to a whole lot of folk just trying to live their life.

@annabelindajane realistically how close do we look at people in the dressing room though? I'm in and out like a shot. A hairy gremlin from Mars could be in there and I probably wouldn't notice.

@forfucksakenett and therein lies the problem. Many of us are in and out of changing rooms wouldn’t notice and some wouldn’t care but what about those women who would notice, care and feel threatened, do we just ignore their feelings to spare those of transwomen?

It is difficult but if women are going to throw away their legal protections we must fully understand all of the consequences.

Just because you don’t care @forfucksakenett doesn’t mean there’s not a problem.

Do you really truly believe humans can change sex?

I didn’t mean that to sound rude @forfucksakenett, sorry if it does

No not rude but I would hope that I have made it clear that I do care. I actually care very much. Both about the women and the trans women the majority of whom have probably used female facilities for years and this horrible spotlight has made things potentially harder for them.

I also think I've been very honest that it's a highly complex issue to which I have no answers.

To answer your question @WouldBeGood both yes and no. I believe a person can undergo the process of transition and present as a woman. They could go their whole life passing as a woman. So yes, they are living the experience of a woman mostly. I would address them as a woman I would consider them a woman abs I would refer to them as such.

In 100 years however if that woman's body was exhumed and examined I know that it would be clear that she had been a man no matter the extent of her transition. So yes I get that they are never truly biologically a woman and I understand that science.

I think that trans people, real trans people in normal life not the Twitter caricatures or the professional sport maniacs, are in reality a tiny minority of exceptionally vulnerable people who are just trying to live their lives. Do I welcome them into a female only changing room? Yes. Do I want them to feel like a woman? Yes. Do I want them to have access to female safe spaces? Absolutely.

@Selkiesarereal your example seems to assume that the transwoman is using the changing room as a point of principle. The biological woman is vulnerable and fearful and the transwoman is the point proving interloper seeking validation of her gender identity. It comes down to a biological woman's fear versus the potential offence caused to the transwoman. In reality I don't think that's particularly accurate or representative. I could counter that the vast majority of trans women don't use these female spaces to make a point and it's more about where they feel safe. Just like us.

@WouldBeGood and yes I've been lucky to not have been subject to make violence beyond the standard experiences that we probably all go through so I've got the sex/ gender equivalent of white privilege I suppose.

Maybe that does make a difference @forfucksakenett. I’ve had some experiences that maybe form my view?

As well as my work.

It’s interesting to think of it from that viewpoint.

@forfucksakenett apologies but you have put far more meaning into my last post than intended!

It really is as simple in that you may not notice who is around you n a changing room but some women do and if they see a transwomen they may feel incredibly vulnerable even if the transwomen is completely harmless, sometimes due to past trauma and sometimes because we learn as women to be wary of people with penises.

This is why we need to be careful as we might be absolutely fine but other women not so do we just disregard their feelings?

It is difficult which is why we shouldn’t not just throw the metaphorical doors open and welcome all into the great party of being a woman.

But then do we disregard the feelings of the transwomen?

That’s the tough part but I think yes. Actually that’s a really difficult thing to write but yes.

I think that existing legislation protects us all but to change it along the proposals of gra tip the balance and allows for those who are not genuine to use to their advantage and women’s disadvantage.

I think most transwomen want to go about their business as like any other person and I think a minority are so focused on them and their feelings that they can’t think of the collective. Sadly some, like Karen White are already abusing the system.

While there may be few transitioned trans women in the general population there are definitely lots and lots of men who get their kicks out of freaking women out and being creepy voyeurs/getting in personal space/flashing etc. They may have never previously thought of themselves as trans at all, but the current climate gives them an excuse to abuse the situation. Also- who else uses women’s changing rooms, toilets and refuges? Children! Because they are with women! And predators will try and access the vulnerable because that’s what they do.
I’m not conflating these creeps with trans women, just pointing out that self-ID and ‘they just want to pee’, ‘be kind’ attitude favours them and they will use the opportunities on offer. It’s a serious safeguarding concern which seems to get glossed over.

I think most transwomen want to go about their business as like any other person and I think a minority are so focused on them and their feelings that they can’t think of the collective. Sadly some, like Karen White are already abusing the system.

It's naive in the extreme to think relaxing the boundaries women fought for won't be abused. And it's not even all about the worse case scenario. Privacy & dignity matter, a lot, especially for women who have a life time of their boundaries being pushed & ridden roughshod over.

I've had to advocate for my elderly mother when she was getting treatment for cancer & was placed in a mix sex ward. It distressed her, and the male patients too, and it was far more difficult to deal with staff who look at you like your a 'bigot' for pointing out how inappropriate it is to distress an ill elderly woman in with men because trans lobbyists have spent time convincing people who make patient policies that anyone who expresses discomfort or anxiety or distress with mixed sex provision only does that because they're prejudiced.

Provision for trans people is needed & necessary & I'd never suggest that's not the case. But expecting women to just give up the boundaries they are entitled to in law, for the sake of hurt feelings? Nope.

@TheShadowyFeminist yes to all that.

I’d be very upset to be in a ward with men to be honest. I’d feel even more vulnerable than one does anyway in hospital.

@circleswithincircles re your post earlier today about community centres being built with fewer women's toilets because of the belief that "we don't use them as often." You need to read Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez. There is a whole chapter on toilet design and how women go more often and spend longer on the toilet for many reasons! And yet there continue to be fewer women's toilets - and longer queues. It sounds as if you work in or with planners - give them copies. It's an excellent award-winning book.