Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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Absolutely. Toilets are the least of it.

I'm all for welcoming trans women into women's physical spaces.

I'm very conflicted about the idea of sport and changing medical terminology, however.

Of course this makes me a big fat hypocrite and I'm also very aware of that.

I don't think an issue has ever confused me more.

Women’s sex based rights have been fought long and hard for and are being removed to spare the feelings of men.

As have gay and lesbian rights. We’ve not even started on the lunacy that lesbians are being called transphobes as they don’t want to have sex with men.

Peaceful coexistence should be possible. But the whole area has been hijacked by those who wish to remove the rights of women rather than to preserve those alongside the rights of men and trans people.

What's happening is that the line drawn in terms of boundaries for women - male free provision/space/services - when women feel or are vulnerable or in a state of undress, is being shifted at the behest of males who resent the fact that women have boundaries because the vast majority of those males don't consider themselves to be part of the problem that brought about the need for those boundaries in the 1st place.

While some women feel entitled to give away other women's rights to privacy, dignity & safety for reasons that entirely escape me. I'm all for people creating the spaces people want/need & entirely against the removal of space/provision/services that are still very much needed.

Demonising women for wanting the space carved out to enable full participation in public life to be maintained isn't progress. Creating new space that's welcoming to others & actually demonstrates the positive attributes they want would be a far better way to shift the dial on all of this. There will still be and always will be women who want & need male free spaces & removing their right to that, to enable their participation in public life is as backward & misogynistic as it gets IMO.

Yep to all of that @WouldBeGood but now trans folk are fighting for their rights and while I don't agree with everything they appear to be fighting for, who are we to determine a hierarchy of rights? That seems pretty problematic.

Although of course it is the case that women and gay people haven't achieved full equality yet and so it seems sensible that neither will trans people realistically.

I'm conflicted and uncomfortable.

There is no need for a hierarchy. Rights can coexist. There’s no need for any one to trump the other.

The problem arises when one group insists on removing the rights of another.

But that's my point. If these rights can't coexist which seems to be the case then what happens? One group or the other loses out and a hierarchy is created whether we like it or not.

Why, @forfucksakenett? Why can’t there be women’s rights, gay rights, men’s rights, and trans rights?

You know why. Because trans folk are fighting to be recognised as their preferred gender. Not to be some ok sort of othered entity.

If it was as simple as that there would be no problem surely?

You’re mixing up sex and gender though.

It also depends whether you believe that humans can change sex.

I don’t believe they can.

Gender: declare away! But that shouldn’t entitle one to sex based rights.

Most people don’t realise what the legislation means. They shrug, and say “each to their own”. But once they find out the true nature of the proposals, eg men in women’s jails/hoodies like wards/ the lesbian thing I mentioned/that no transition, appearance or anything is required; they are not so laid back. Because it sounds nuts 🤷🏻‍♀️

Because men who claim to be women don't want to be excluded on the basis they're male, and instead of acknowledging women's rights & needs that inform those rights, want everyone acquiesce to the lie that males can become female therefore female only provisions entirely unaffected by their presence.

The conflict is in the delusion that female rights cannot be erased by males who claim to be female because 'they're not the problem, men are'.

There is no squaring the circle of males who say they're women, making female only spaces/services/provision mixed sex by their presence/inclusion. I don't think anyone wants to leave someone in need without support or help, but the sacrifice of women's need to female only provision to accommodate the needs of males wanting to be thought of as women, isn't a price women should be paying.

There's nothing wrong with creating the all inclusive spaces that would be ideal for both TW & women who are happy to use/frequent mixed sex spaces. That would be the sensible & logical route to take. But that's not enough - it's the co-opting of every spaces/service & removal of female only for women who want/need it that's the aim for trans activists.

No I'm not. I understand perfectly the difference. I'm stating what the trans activists are fighting for not what I believe or want.

As I have said repeatedly my own feelings are conflicted. Happy to welcome trans women into female only spaces. Not so happy to welcome them into sport or to Start changing medical terminology etc.

No. They want to be recognised as the opposite sex.

Which is exactly what I said. They want to be recognised as the opposite sex they don't want to be othered into some third space. Although some do tbf. It would be reductive to suggest that there's an overall trans agenda.

Well, my caveat is that obviously most trans people are not like this, but the TRAs are. Aggressively so.

Have a look at the threats posted recently by TRAs against “terfs” for example.

Agsin: not most trans people.

Yes I know. It's appalling.

Just to be fair, you did say “preferred gender” 😃

They do also want to “other” me by having me call myself a “cis woman” .

Apologies I did. I do know the difference though. I also more importantly believe in the difference and looking back at my posts it's biology where my line seems to be drawn ( sport, medicine).

Quite. Not something I'd be keen to call myself either.

Yeah, it’s a minefield @forfucksakenett.

Weird how it’s become such a thing for politicians 🤷🏻‍♀️

Not sure we're even allowed cis these days - I've seen a few bloggers saying that post surgical TW/TM are now cis.

To start with it was the words man/woman and everyone kind of budged up and distinguished sexes using male/female

Then that wasn't ok, because if you're a woman you're female and if you feel like a woman you are a woman thereforw if you are a woman with a penis it's a female penis (or something). We had to be cis

But even that is now being appropriated- because the reality is that there is a subset of TRA who just do not accept us having any separate definition, any word that describes a category which excludes TW/TM

Ah, I’m out of date then @StatisticallyChallenged 😃

Any takers for womxn?

stats it's almost as if it isn't really about labels at all.

Also fascinating that this whole debate always gets reduced to discussing transwomen when actually over 2/3 of young trans community are transmen. Hardly ever see discussion of their rights and access to safe spaces which I would have thought far more problematic.

@SempreSuiGeneris I suppose I’m interested in the debate from the perspective of women’s rights.

Although I do resent the relabelling of sanitary products and so on so as not to cause offence. And the “people who have periods” stuff.