Thread 7 - No pitch forks or Pom Poms - Scottish political shenanigans

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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And I can understand that from a Trans person's POV if I'm being honest. I wouldn't want to be othered either.

@WouldBeGood that's a very valid point but people are triggered by all sorts of things as a result of abuse.

Also how would we know realistically who had a penis and who didn't?

Yes, it is a giant mess, and it does seem impossible to get around the issues without "othering" to a certain extent. Though I suppose we "other", or require certain things of different people in lots of ways in society... couples cohabiting don't have the same rights as married couples, even though they may be seen "socially" as having the same relationship. If I don't have a driving licence (with the intrusive investigation into the quality of my driving and expense that involves) I can't expect to hire a car, even though I may be able to drive perfectly safely, and anyone seeing me wouldn't know I don't have one... I know those are flippant examples, but it does have to be possible to "discriminate" on some grounds even where that doesn't seem fair, to ensure safety, social cohesion, legal compliance or whatever.

And yes wouldbegood - I realise I'm very privileged in that I don't generally feel intrinsically unsafe around men, however they present, and I appreciate that many women wouldn't be in that position. As well as the sex/ gender which doesn't exist thing. It's all very confusing for me, who generally doesn't need to wrestle with it in my daily life.

Chest feeding, bleugh!

The thing is though, no one check if it's all women coming into toilets etc at the moment, do they? Re sport, I don't think men are going to change their recorded gender just so they can take race etc against women instead of men. The same with business - men aren't going to live as men but change their recorded gender so they can be on the boards of companies.

I'm definitely one for safe spaces and to me that's around security. I've only ever been in a mixed toilet once and that was years ago in London. I did find it really weird. I've never seen adult mixed toilets in Scotland. Has anyone else?

@StarryEyeSurprise I'm sure there's a pub in merchant city with mixed toilets although I was pretty drunk and could have just been in the wrong place.

There are a few relatively high profile trans sports folk who are controversial to put it politely. Veronica Ivy being one to google.

I wouldn't put it past some horrors to do anything to be honest but the actions of a minority can't determine the needs of the majority. That's not how our world works.

In most cases it would be impossible to tell who had what in their pants and really it's none of our business anyway.

It's already an issue in sports - relatively niche thus far but I wouldn't expect it to remain so.

You only need a handfull of mid level male sportsmen to decide they fancy a medal/cash prize before women are effectively sidelined from high level sport.

So yeah no one checks is what I mean.

Imagine. Show me in your pants?! 🤷🏻‍♀️

@TheShadowyFeminist

It's not nonsense and your suggestion that you can tell what someone else's genitalia is betrays your own arrogance and prejudice.

There are many times I have seen what I perceive to be a transwoman and I could take an educated guess that they hadn't fully transitioned. That's all it is though. An educated guess.

There are many trans women on Twitter who have fully transitioned and still appear as what I would imagine a transwoman to look like. I.e I feel like I can tell they used to be a man.

There are also trans women who I would never in a million years have known had ever been a man.

Same with trans men. There are trans men I would never have known had ever been women.

I think it's possibly an age thing. Younger trans people I find it's impossible to tell. I don't know if this is an early medical intervention thing, a make up thing, a surgery thing? I don't know. But what I do know is that if you get on Tik Tok and have a look at what young trans people are actually presenting like and still think that you can tell them you must have x Ray vision.

There were a few comments on a thread recently questioning whether that greens woman was trans? She isn't incidentally but it goes to show that people, quite rightly, have no idea what's going on in someone else's pants.

There are also very masculine looking biological women of course.

Re toilets. DHs work changed all the female toilets to "unisex" but kept the male ones male (cos urinals, innit). I pointed out that that seemed pretty unfair and he did agree eventually, but it took him a while (and some description of mooncups that made him blanch...). It is a pretty male dominated department, and I honestly think that they haven't thought all the issues through but are just "being inclusive" following orders from estates and buildings/ unions or whoever. It made me feel a bit icky to be honest - just that it was the women's areas that were "compromised" while the men's were sacrosanct (but its just practical like that...). And glad that I work from home. The only other unisex toilets I've seen have had sinks etc in the cubicles, like accessible toilets, just lots in a row... But those have been in swanky purpose built offices, so a bit different to "real life".

Anyone who has worked in local authority planning or licensing will tell you that most new sports and community buildings are routinely built with less female than male toilets, to save space and money, because "records show women are less likely to use them" or some such guff. So the cynic in me thinks that unisex toilets are a convenient way of getting round this.

The very idea that women cannot tell who is male & who isn't, when spending any amount of time in the presence of male people, is a delusion that's peddled by activists claiming anyone pointing out the fact TW are male, are bigots. Being male isn't unspeakable. It's a reality whether people like it or not, and it matters in particular settings & contexts.

I asked for my post to be deleted cos I hadn't finished it & posted it prematurely. But this 'who can tell who has a penis' bullshit is just that - utter bullshit.

When the reality of being male or female has a material impact on the ability to safeguard & maintain safeguarding for vulnerable adults and children, as well as women for whom privacy, dignity & safety matters, you cannot base any legislation or policy that impacts the right to invoke single sex exceptions on the basis of the spurious argument that 'no one can tell' who is male. It encourages those who are male to push the boundaries of women, irrespective of how that impacts them. And for what? To make sure women are intimidated enough to shut up?

As I said in my deleted post, argue for better provision to meet the needs of TW, for better healthcare, for protection from bullying, harassment, abuse etc. but leave the bullshit trans activists arguments out of this. Because you sound just like all the wee beardy blokes who try & peddle this nonsense smirking at the idea they know that just means yet more women will be harassed & intimidated by the males of a variety of 'identities' who think they can disregard any boundaries women set.

And you sound arrogant and entitled.

My suggestion that no one can tell who has a penis or not was in relation to someone saying that women might be triggered to be in a space with someone with a penis. It wasn't to do with creating legislation. I've already admitted several times that I have no clue how to deal with this and that a lot of it makes me feel uncomfortable.

My point is you can't tell. You may think you can and in some cases you may be correct but even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

In a lot of cases it is just not possible to know who is trans and who isn't, particularly in the case of the younger trans community. The fact that you think that you can and every more worryingly that you think you have a right to is bizarre.

You seem to be coming from the position that trans people are to be feared which is incorrect. A small minority of men are to be feared and that cannot be allowed to impinge on the rights of ordinary innocent people.

@ResilienceWanker

Re toilets. DHs work changed all the female toilets to "unisex" but kept the male ones male (cos urinals, innit). I pointed out that that seemed pretty unfair and he did agree eventually, but it took him a while (and some description of mooncups that made him blanch...). It is a pretty male dominated department, and I honestly think that they haven't thought all the issues through but are just "being inclusive" following orders from estates and buildings/ unions or whoever. It made me feel a bit icky to be honest - just that it was the women's areas that were "compromised" while the men's were sacrosanct (but its just practical like that...). And glad that I work from home. The only other unisex toilets I've seen have had sinks etc in the cubicles, like accessible toilets, just lots in a row... But those have been in swanky purpose built offices, so a bit different to "real life".

That's actually awful.

Children can differentiate sex from about the age of 2. They can do this by face alone. There are numerous studies. Sex and indeed sexuality are much more obvious than the current debate suggests.

Whether and to what extent the various categorisations matter is the real issue and entirely separate from some nebulous concept of "passing".

@SempreSuiGeneris

Children can differentiate sex from about the age of 2. They can do this by face alone. There are numerous studies. Sex and indeed sexuality are much more obvious than the current debate suggests.

Whether and to what extent the various categorisations matter is the real issue and entirely separate from some nebulous concept of "passing".

Sure they can. That doesn't take into account, however, people who have altered their appearance significantly with surgery, make up and medication.

The concept of passing isn't nebulous when we are discussing it in the context of how a male presence may trigger a woman which is exactly how this started.

And you sound arrogant and entitled.

You've repeated that accusation several times over several threads at different people for a variety of reasons. It seems to be your fallback when you can't articulate a sensible argument.

🤷🏻‍♀️

Female only spaces/provision/services are about females, for reasons of privacy, dignity & safety. If there's a need for others not being met by the male equivalent, by all means argue for the need to expand & include gender neutral or unisex or open to all provision, in addition to female (and male) provision.

I can't be bothered with the juvenile 'oh but can you really tell' nonsense as though it's some gotcha. It's an argument that creates more harassment & abuse of women & encourages males to push & override women's boundaries. None of those arguments help anyone.

I think passing in person is possible - especially with surgery or the possibility of puberty blockers - but I think it's much harder to do in reality than in pictures and even video. It's very hard to say why though!

It's very hard to define though from a perspective of access to woman's spaces - the person who passes in a photo/at 10am with professionally done make up and hair may not do so bare faced in the evening with a ponytail. I don't know how you would build it in to rules IYSWIM?

@StarryEyeSurprise

The billions wasted on the English track and trace could have paid the WASPI pensions 4 times over. The Tories have __chosen not to pay the WASPI pensions yet the women affected are still voting for them. The mind boggles.

I heard a radio discussion on the test and trace system and it failed miserably mainly because only 1 in 5 people would actually go for a test if they had symptoms plus when asked a very high percentage of the population ( can’t recall % ) couldn’t name the 5 main symptoms of COVID . So the Billions I guess would have been better spent on high funding of people getting a positive test to keep them at home .

Have I? I'll have to take your word for it.

I believe that I have made reasonable points. Just because they irritate you or you don't agree doesn't make them less valid or reasonable.

Your suggestion that you can tell the state of a trans persons genitalia is very impressive. I certainly can't. Not at all intended as a 'gotcha' moment.

It doesn't surprise me that a low proportion are willing to test tbh. Especially if you only had mild symptoms and need to work outside the home

Your suggestion that you can tell the state of a trans persons genitalia is very impressive. I certainly can't. Not at all intended as a 'gotcha' moment.

This is a good example right here. I haven't commented on 'the state' of anyone's genitalia. I've commented on male people being male, and being obviously male to women who spend even a small amount of time in their presence.

As I said, lots of insults thrown out when arguments are lacking. You'd not need to make up comments either if you had decent arguments to make.

Hmmm.

To recap. A pp said that women's safe spaces should be free of penises and women might be triggered by males and penises being in that space.

I made the point that it would in almost all cases be impossible to truly know if a transwoman had a penis or not. Which I still believe to be a valid point. We wouldn't know and it's none of our business.

At some point you got irked and annoyed by this and said that you could tell if the difference between a tranwoman and biological woman (good for you btw because I can't).

For me personally the erosion or potential erosion of sex based rights is a huge one.

The much spouted toilet issue is a bit of a red herring as to accept rights based on gender has huge implications for women.

If we base laws based on gender then transwomen are legally women. This means that they would be placed in women’s prisons, mostly containing very vulnerable women- google Karen White for evidence that this has already happened in the uk.

Rape victims, rape is defined as using a penis, something most trans women possess, can not demand to be examined by someone not in possession of a penis.

Women’s refuges can’t not admit women in possession of a penis as remember, trans women are now legally women.

Rape victims in court may have to refer to the accused as she, something that has already happened in the UK.

Trans women will be able to compete as women in sport. This is already happening at elite levels and will become evident in, I believe, weightlifting at this years olympics.

Also, there is moves to accept trans women into women’s rugby, again this will include those who transitioned after puberty and in possession of a penis.

So it’s not quite a simple as being comfortable with the toilet situation but with having no sex based rights.

This is not an attack on transwomen who the vast majority just want to live their lives in peace and deserve to be respected and treated with dignity. But whilst ensuring that we do so, we shouldn’t just give up our much needed protection and safeguards as we all know that predators will use whatever means to find loopholes to attack women.

Sorry don’t normally make long posts as on my crappy phone but I just wanted people to understand what is being pushed for.