Yikes! Alba Party - anyone voting for Salmond?

[PrelovedWithValue]

Not a chance in hell will I be putting my X next to a party led by him.

I think it is more of a challenge to the SNP on reflection. If you are pro Indy but would rather have a more representative Parliament you now have a choice to vote SNP in the constituency and ANother at the List stage to represent both your preferences or ANother at the constituency stage and Alba / SNP / Green etc at the List stage.

The "SNP both votes" as the only way to secure a pro Indy majority narrative no longer holds.

Also puts much more focus on individual candidates at both constituency and List level. I haven't really paid much attention to List SNP candidates as they would likely have no impact in my area. That would change if the SNP were likely to lose any constituency seats.

I think there is also an argument for sorting out the Parliamentary deficits exposed by the Salmond enquiry prior to going for Indyref2.
Otherwise they will inevitably undermine the whole campaign. Part of that would be demonstrating an ability to function as multi-party cross coalitions as intended by the voting system rather than the current dominant single Party and polarised opposition.

Not a chance

Gosh it’s a tough decisions for a pro Indy voter. Salmond who acts inappropriately with women and whose Own QC calls a sex pest. And Sturgeon who is systematically dismantling women’s rights.

I guess that depends on whether you give the same weight to one man’s personal failings and poor behaviour as you do to formally decided party policy.

It really is a case of which of those sleazy misogynists to vote for in that choice.

Salmond who acts inappropriately with women and whose Own QC calls a sex pest.

I think it must have been a tougher dilemma for all the unionists who have been fawning over Salmond this past while. Many seem to have quite a crush

Kenny MacKaskill now jumped ship.

Anyone thinking a list vote for AS's party will help indy needs to tread carefully as it could have the opposite effect.

The Highlands and South Scotland are a couple of the places where it's a strategy that ( I believe) will most likely give more seats to the Tories.

I wonder if party Alba could be challenged on that basis.

I don't think it could Missbarbery as it's no different to people using tactical voting, or what the Alliance for Unity are doing really.

But as I say, I worry the outcome could just be really unhealthy for us as a society.

I haven't really paid much attention to List SNP candidates as they would likely have no impact in my area. That would change if the SNP were likely to lose any constituency seats.

good point SempreSuiGeneris

And anther good point from StarryEyesurprise
Anyone thinking a list vote for AS's party will help indy needs to tread carefully as it could have the opposite effect.
The Highlands and South Scotland are a couple of the places where it's a strategy that ( I believe) will most likely give more seats to the Tories.

hadn't thought of it like that

I’ve always made it clear I have no time for AS whilst also thinking NS has behaved very badly

Just seen on twitter that Kenny McAskill will be top of the Lothians list. That''ll be him against super-woke Graham Campbell for the SNP, which will be entertaining.

@happygolurkey

Salmond who acts inappropriately with women and whose Own QC calls a sex pest.

I think it must have been a tougher dilemma for all the unionists who have been fawning over Salmond this past while. Many seem to have quite a crush

Eh? What Unionists would that be?

It's simply a question of deciding which is the more odious , untrustworthy and self- serving - Sturgeon or Salmond ? And deciding, who cares- hell mend the pair of them.

You are misinterpreting Unionist pleasure at Salmond's antics in attacking his former party as support.

@StarryEyeSurprise

Anyone thinking a list vote for AS's party will help indy needs to tread carefully as it could have the opposite effect.

The Highlands and South Scotland are a couple of the places where it's a strategy that ( I believe) will most likely give more seats to the Tories.

Good. I hope party Ecksit spectacularly backfires.

You are misinterpreting Unionist pleasure at Salmond's antics in attacking his former party as support.

I've never had the slightest bit of doubt that that was at the heart of it, just rather taken aback at the depths some have sunk to in enjoying this 'pleasure'

@happygolurkey

voting works different in Scotland HappyDaysAreHere. We have a kind of proportional representation. There's two ways you can be elected as an MSP - one is if you get the most votes in your constituency. But you can also get in as a 'list MSP' - basically, the total number of votes are counted and divided up proportionally between the other parties. It's to make things a bit fairer and have better representation for voters overall. It's worked well in the past so smaller parties get a voice. It is these 'list' votes Alba are going after and Salmond says they are not going after the 'constituency' ones. So it's not likely (though not totally impossible) that they will split the vote. As I say, the system was designed to make things more representative, but used, one might call it 'strategically' (or tactically) like this undoes that I feel. Even though I lean more toward independence myself I feel that this tactic makes it a bit undemocratic in a way. Basically, everyone other than people pro-independence could end up not being represented in parliament as there's a good chance Labour, conservative and Lib Dem could just get wiped out/swamped. Doesn't seem very healthy to me to that roughly half the population could be left feeling disenfranchised.

Thank youhappygolurkey that is a really detailed explanation which I am screen shooting to show my dh. I had no idea there was so much difference in Scotland. This thread is so interesting from our point of view as it allows us some insight and understanding. By the way my mother was a Fraser so am always warm towards Scotland.

Of course, flouncing out of your party, and starting a new one worked SO well for Farage, didn’t it!

HappyDaysAreHere

thanks so much - the warmth goes both ways - I lived in North East of England for a bit and loved it. Still miss it in many ways.
Glad the explanation made sense - was worried it might just add confusion! Honestly I think a lot of us up here struggle to get our heads round it properly at times!
Should also have said you don't just put down one vote (though you can) So the idea would be you'd put first choice, second choice etc.
The second half of my post was was just my speculation really after a brief pondering right after Salmond's announcement. As you see, others have put forward other scenarios and looking at it now, I can see their points. I guess it's all up in the air at the moment!!

It's straight out of seasons 12 and 3 of Borgen 🤔

maybe he watched it 😂

This is a good balanced article on the voting system, the supermajority strategy and why it is problematic for the SNP whichever way it turns out.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/alex-salmond-alba-party-nicola-sturgeon-scottish-independence-b1823335.html

Even more problematic if the strategy was actually to squeak through with the Greens and spend the next session picking fights rather than running the country or getting on with actually holding an Indyref.

Way to split the vote😬

I'm a bit torn here because I'm no AS fan but I'm actually thinking this could be a great move.

Douglas Ross has clearly shat himself.

Ah, now that's confused me happy. I don't think the Scottish Parliament elections do use ranking, so first/ second choice etc? I thought that was just for the council elections.

As I understand it everyone gets 2 ballot papers - one for the constituency and one for the region. You put a single X on both... for an individual candidate for the constituency (which is counted up, and the one with most votes wins, so FPTP) and for a party for the region. Each party has ranked their candidates already in their "list" so you don't get to chose which one you want as a voter. If a party wins a list seat, the first person on the list gets it, if 2 seats the first 2 and so on.

The seats are allocated by counting the number of votes for each party, but then dividing that number by the number of constituency seats that party had already won within the region (plus 1). So if every snp voter in a region gave their second vote to SNP and they got, say 100,000 votes, but had already won 9 constituencies, the list vote would be 100,000/ 10, so 10,000. However, if 40,000 people voted Tory, labour, Alba or whatever, and they had won no constituencies, their list vote would initially divided by 1 (40,000), so they would get 1 MSP. Then it would be divided by 2 (20,000) which is still higher than the SNP, so their second list candidate would be selected. Then 3 (13,333) which is still higher, so their 3rd list candidate would be selected, and only at the 4th list seat would the SNP get a go. Obviously it's not as simple as that, as there are more than 2 parties running, so it's possible that the SNP wouldn't get any list seats at all if they do well in constituencies, with the parties with no constituencies getting 1 or 2 list seats each out of the 7(?) available in each region.

So if each region has 1 or 2 alba seats, that could potentially be more pro independence MSPs in parliament than if people give both votes to the SNP. It's a tricky balance to play though, as if the SNP doesn't do so well in constituencies they could well pick up a few list seats, but are less likely to do that the more votes go to alba! It is a totally legitimate strategy by Alba, but it does run the risk of disenfranchising unionist voters who may not be as well represented proportionally in parliament as their numbers amongst the electorate. Though if the SNP don't do as well in constituencies as predicted (or in regions where the constituency winners are a bit more varied), it may indeed stop there being an pro independence majority if the list votes don't all go to the SNP...

Utterly baffling as far as I'm concerned, and my brain can't cope with the various implications, but quite interesting anyway!

yes, was thinking of first and second vote - but had forgotten it's two separate papers rather than ranking them first and second - as it is on the council election papers. Sorry, you're explanation is much better!!

Though if the SNP don't do as well in constituencies as predicted (or in regions where the constituency winners are a bit more varied), it may indeed stop there being an pro independence majority if the list votes don't all go to the SNP...

yes, this is the problem from a pro-indie point of view, especially as it is pretty likely the SNP will lose constituency seats.
yeh, agree with you, Alba strategy is perfectly valid, just worry about the consequences of the other scenario - this possible imbalance of representation and what that will do to us a society. There's already enough anger. And i don't know if it would even bring us nearer to indy ref. I don't know enough about it to say but I'm not convinced by Salmond's argument that it would be harder for UK government to not allow it. Would Johnson give a shit about the smaller parties? Would it not just be the case that the majority party would have to have a significant majority, and not just be scraping by purely through the lists? I've no idea to be honest.

Anyway, think i might just not think about tactics/strategy and disable my internet until election day then go out and vote with my heart

Your last sentence is 100% the most sensible thing I've read on this today!

I don't think Johnson will allow a second referendum, tbh - but that's just him, and nothing to do with the makeup of the SP. I wobble on whether I think that's wise, though I don't think it's fair as there has been a material change, and there is a sizeable portion of Scotland that does want another ref. I don't want one personally at all, as I think it will just cause anger and worry and destabilisation when we should be coming together to recover. But I realise the country isn't run for my benefit and it may be better just to get the fucker over and done with rather than having the prospect looming. Still not happy though!

I don't agree the list MSPs are any less valid than the constituency ones, or any less representative of what the people think, and I don't think parties are "scraping by" by getting MSPs via the list. That's kind of the point! I also wish there was more collaboration between parties without it being seen as "working with the tories" or whatever. So alba could maybe work with the SNP on independence policies, but with eg tories on economic policies or with labour on social policies. (I assume with AS involved they will be more economically "right" than NS, though I don't even know if they have any actual policies yet). But I'm the first to admit I don't understand Scottish politics so am probably being irretrievably naive.