The Fall Out Continues - thread 6

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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And actually in a very petty way @fandabbydoozy I just scrolled back to see who brought up the independent Scotland chat and guess what ... it was @fandabbydoozy 's account!

I'd say that a ruling party with a semi-official line that certain EU legislation shouldn't apply in it is about as anti-EU as it gets.

The Single Market works on the basis of harmonised, uniform legislation throughout the EU, so that competitors on the market can trade in equal conditions, or indeed not face barriers to entering the market.

So lets say a German property company wishing to enter the future EU member state of Scotland should be able to do so under exactly the same conditions that a Scottish-based company can. All that rhetoric of absentee landlords being cracked down upon could not apply in an EU member state. If a Romanian living in Romania wanted to buy a holiday let and manage it remotely via Air B&B, then its likely that imposing licensing conditions on the holiday lettings market via restricting Air B&Bs would be in breach of EU competition law. Because restricting it in the way that is currently being done would unfairly penalise non-Scots based holiday let owners.

True, harmonisation is a blunt instrument and increasingly mutual co-operation is favoured in many areas, but the ethos is still the same - unanimous decision making in major policy areas, no dissent allowed. Equalising market conditions throughout the EU and encouraging inter-EU competition from outwith the member state is the key.

Actually, Denmark has huge restrictions on people from outwith the country buying holiday homes there. It's great and a strategy that SNPers such as LR wish to implement in Scotland.

The Hate Crime legislation breaches several human rights. Its very odd why things like this keep happening in Scotland, but I do know that its being used as a case study in a few universities in Europe. Its fairly unusual what is happening here, because in most European countries, human rights are always increasing, not being eroded and certainly not being eroded by devolved governments subject to relatively few constitutional checks and balances.

I watched the various committee sessions on this as it progressed & it was astonishing just how rushed it was & how much was effectively skimmed over. Adam Tompkins took exception to the committee sessions being described as inadequate as they'd spent more time on the bill than most, and yet it still wasn't enough to tackled the huge volume of submissions & the issues raised. This was the only time I can remember being grateful that the Tories were actually working on this & at least tried to mitigate the problems it was creating. His speech on the day the bill passed was was scathing in the most polite terms & its interesting that they have as a pledge for this election to repeal the bill.

What was quite evident from the passage of the various session was the extent of input/influence from lobbyists - reaction to Humza Yousaf's own amendment from those lobbyists (who got their way in the end) tells more of a story on the issues with the governance & ethics involved in legislation being pushed by Scotgov. The extent to which lobby groups are effectively writing the terms of legislation is a massive concern for me. A lot of the responsibilities of government are being contracted out to hugely gov funded orgs who are mirroring an agenda Scotgov want & giving those same lobbyists way more input & influence than is reasonable or healthy.

I think your take on Scotgov/SNP & their approach to legislation eye opening (from someone not involved but who has had doubts about this for a while) as I think their position seems to be push through bad legislation & do nothing unless legally challenged. And even then, they'll string it out to the bitter end, costing everyone involved huge sums in the process.

And it comes back to (for me) the lack of opposition, proper scrutiny & a lack of oversight/2nd chamber to pick up on the issues you've highlighted etc.

@StarryEyeSurprise

Actually, Denmark has huge restrictions on people from outwith the country buying holiday homes there. It's great and a strategy that SNPers such as LR wish to implement in Scotland.

Its not restrictions on individual ownership however it is restrictions on cartels based in certain countries preventing new operators on the market setting up there. Nationality isn't relevant when a primarily say Danish based property company sets up a business in another EU member state, or a branch office, and wishes to become a major player. That would not go down well in Scotland, particularly if management decisions are made from the EU member state.

Much of the property licensing system in Scotland works on protecting a very small core of favoured contractors and an often inadequately published set of licensing requirements, which are almost impossible for non-Scottish based operators to find out.

Denmark isn't happy with the EU competition law enforcement in its pig meat industry, due to Vestjyske Slagterier and other cases, since the pig market and specifically the sensitivity to boar taint varies so much between the UK and Germany.

I'd say Denmark is the leading bet to follow the UK out of the EU, or at least the most likely, but it might take a while yet.

TheShadowyFeminist I think their position seems to be push through bad legislation & do nothing unless legally challenged. And even then, they'll string it out to the bitter end, costing everyone involved huge sums in the process.

And it comes back to (for me) the lack of opposition, proper scrutiny & a lack of oversight/2nd chamber to pick up on the issues you've highlighted etc.

Thats it in a nutshell. Its very unusual, what is happening here, in a 21 century western european state. Scotland is desperately in need of a second, independent chamber to scrutinise and check legislation for balance and fairness.

I won't pretend its not entertaining and doesn't give those of us working in it plenty to write and talk about. Theres an increasing amount of international interest via university constitutional law departments about what is happening in Scotland. Its really fascinating, and its a perfect storm of rushed devolution in an already informalised, fluid constitutional set up resulting in an unusual loss of the constitutional checks and balances that are standard in almost every other European country.

Professor Adam Tomkins is of course still a Professor of Constitutional Law at Glasgow University. He knows his stuff. He is almost wasted in the Scottish Government at the moment, and must find it very frustrating.

It almost feels like thug rule at times.

Oh and by the way, the case law of the CJEU on whether an emanation of the state (such as a local authority) can be a cartel and subject to EU competition law sanctions is very well established. It is treated as an infringement by the member state itself, and the member state is fined for permitting it and not taking action to prevent it - joined cases C-6/90 and C-9/90 Francovich [1991] ECR I-5357, 33 to 36; case C-271/91 Marshall v Southampton and South West Hampshire Area Health Authority [1993] ECR I-4367, 30 and 34 to 35; joined cases C-46/93 and C-48/93 Brasserie du Pêcheur and Factortame [1996] ECR I-1029; case C-392/93 British Telecommunications [1996] ECR I-1631, 39 to 46 and joined cases C-178/94, C-179/94 and C-188/94 to 190/94 Dillenkofer [1996] ECR I-4845, 22 to 26 and 72.

In case anyone wants to brush up on their basic understanding of EU competition cases.

I can't quote your comment (@greenland) as it already has a quote in it, but no I am referring to individual ownership ( I have family in Copenhagen).

Professor Adam Tomkins is of course still a Professor of Constitutional Law at Glasgow University. He knows his stuff. He is almost wasted in the Scottish Government at the moment, and must find it very frustrating.

He's one of the many MSPs not seeking re-election so I think his frustration won over.

@TheShadowyFeminist

Professor Adam Tomkins is of course still a Professor of Constitutional Law at Glasgow University. He knows his stuff. He is almost wasted in the Scottish Government at the moment, and must find it very frustrating.

He's one of the many MSPs not seeking re-election so I think his frustration won over.

This is tragic. In any other country, such a person would be appointed to high office or asked to draw up a new constitution, or similar. What a waste of home grown talent.

I was aware he was standing down but it's a shame as we need more expertise, not less.

It does feel like Thug Rule, you've hit the nail on the head there @GreenlandTheMovie

It's not really tragic. He's clearly an intelligent man but he's a Scottish Conservative. I cannot ever see a circumstance where they would find themselves in power in Scotland. Why should he be part of a government when the people of Scotland voted directly against his politics?

Can someone elaborate on what they mean by thug rule?

@forfucksakenett

It's not really tragic. He's clearly an intelligent man but he's a Scottish Conservative. I cannot ever see a circumstance where they would find themselves in power in Scotland. Why should he be part of a government when the people of Scotland voted directly against his politics?

Can someone elaborate on what they mean by thug rule?

Of course its bloody tragic if Scotland is losing constitutional lawyers who could point them on the right constitutional path towards independence, in favour of career politicians who care for little other than self advancement and personal ambition. As opposed to traditional Scottish values of morality, hard work and ethics.

By thug rule, well theres a lot of things meant by them, many of them nuanced, but one would be shouting down those with relevant qualifications in favour of said ambitious people who think riding over reasonable objections for personal gain is ok. Thats a nice way of putting it.

I really don't like this demonising of political opposition. I couldn't care less what political party someone works for if they have vision, intelligence and drive. You don't get it in countries like Holland or Germany, or the Scandinavian countries. If Scotland is ever to be successful independently, it must become a tolerant place where these nasty, snide insults about other people's democratic choices become a thing of the past.

20 years ago, give it take, the Tories were the second largest party in Scotland with the SNP largely a fringe group so should we become independent, there is nothing to stop them making a come back. As evidenced by SNP’s meteoric rise, stranger things have happened.

Sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding how someone who votes for a party who doesn't believe that Scotland should have a devolved parliament and whose aim is to remove the powers of said Parliament, could ever 'point them on the right constitutional path towards independence ?'

Anyone would think no-one in Scotland votes Conservative. 2019 election the tories received 25% of the vote giving them 10% of the seats.

I should add that if we were to become independent, we need to put party politics to one side and draw in our finest minds to help on the negotiations as it will not be pretty.

@StarryEyeSurprise

Sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding how someone who votes for a party who doesn't believe that Scotland should have a devolved parliament and whose aim is to remove the powers of said Parliament, could ever 'point them on the right constitutional path towards independence ?'

You have difficulty in believing that a world famous constitutional lawyer and professor of law at Glasgow University understands the basics of constitutional law and cannot divorce morality and ethics from personal political viewpoints?

Does that tell us all we need to know about the SNP rather than Professor Adam Tomkins?

Vision, intelligence and drive are not neutral. Your politics would drive these things.

I find it hard not to demonise Tory politics if I'm honest.

Also, forfucksakenett didn't make 'nasty, snide' insults. She's merely referring to the fact the fact the Tories haven't been voted into power by the people of Scotland for 65 years.

@Selkiesarereal

I should add that if we were to become independent, we need to put party politics to one side and draw in our finest minds to help on the negotiations as it will not be pretty.

Yes, absolutely. A small country risks becoming a quasi dictatorship dominated by single party rule if it cannot embrace coalition government which is accepted across the rest of Western Europe and Scandinavia (except in the UK, but you would think following the UK political model would make independence obsolete).

Coalition government (and being relatively polite about other peoples' political choices) seems to work perfectly well in other European countries.

@forfucksakenett

Vision, intelligence and drive are not neutral. Your politics would drive these things.

I find it hard not to demonise Tory politics if I'm honest.

If you sideline our best minds, you risk a small country driving out its best people as it quickly becomes seen as a place not fit for the qualified and ambitious, but more for "party members".

Its really important not to do that even in these stages where independence is not a given but to be seen as open minded and inclusive to all, not just the party faithful.

I agree greenland we can’t afford to sideline our constitutional experts, we need to listen to all voices not just shut them down because they belong to another political party, we need theirs and many others expertise.

It's very hard @GreenlandTheMovie to continue this discussion because you are exceptionally rude and quite judgemental in most of your posts so I'm almost frightened to ask / mention but I am also struggling to understand why Adam Tomkins would want / be able to devise the constitutional path towards an independent Scotland. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Surely the conversation would be something like:

Hey Adam can you help us with this thing?
No thanks. I don't agree with what you're trying to achieve.

Unless I'm missing something?

He's a very clever man but I'm sure there are other professors of Law who are just as knowledgeable. Scotland isn't going to fall into the sea because he's not in Government.