The Fall Out Continues - thread 6

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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@Cismyfatarse I have no clue if it's true or not. I wouldn't like it to be true but it could be I suppose.

My guess is It will all be out in the open one way or the other in the next few days. It's definitely gathering traction and they will be forced, as they should be, to show where the money is soon.

I am no fan of Wings and became utterly infuriated during indyref with being told to read his stuff. I work in finance, I can read accounts all by myself!! Almost always men who did it, funnily enough.

I haven't looked as far back as 2017 but I have looked at the most recent SNP accounts and the money isn't there in any remotely obvious way. His conclusions may be wrong and his style simplistic but it appears to me that the ringfenced money is not there.

I will look through older accounts later and see if I can identify it myself though as I know how selectively he can interpret accounts sometimes (the wee blue book for instance)

The work of Scottish academics is out there for all to see who want it / can afford it.

I'm not aware of any writing just now on the alleged missing SNP funds right enough. We'll just need to make do with the plebeian witterings of journalists, bloggers and each other until an academic saviour comes along I guess.

I would also suggest that you need to do a fair bit more reading and learning if you genuinely think that some academic papers aren't biased / inaccurate / propaganda.

*Maybe "we" don't always want to read fiction or listen to children, or indeed read propoganda. Maybe some of us would rather read something that is properly researched and presented, without silly little posters and made up names?

Is that really beyond the realms of your imagination?*

Oh the irony. Unless Greenland is your real name? That would be pretty cool actually.

@forfucksakenett

The work of Scottish academics is out there for all to see who want it / can afford it.

I'm not aware of any writing just now on the alleged missing SNP funds right enough. We'll just need to make do with the plebeian witterings of journalists, bloggers and each other until an academic saviour comes along I guess.

I would also suggest that you need to do a fair bit more reading and learning if you genuinely think that some academic papers aren't biased / inaccurate / propaganda.

God, you really have a problem with academics, don't you? You just go on and on and on.

As I said, another poster on this thread had asked me for some academic sources.

I'd highly recommend Paul Cairney - he's very accessible, and a quick google search will bring up links which are entirely free - nothing to do with "affordability" or any of your attempts to make university level writings seem elite or inaccessible to Scots. He's also not a "self-appointed" expert living in Bristol, like the Wings guy.

Is anyone minded to continue these threads? It's certainly an arduous task keeping things going but if there's interest still, I can start a new thread.

@TheShadowyFeminist

Is anyone minded to continue these threads? It's certainly an arduous task keeping things going but if there's interest still, I can start a new thread.

I was broadly enjoying discussion. Not sure why it's go quite so confrontational recently though, it's a pity.

@GreenlandTheMovie nothing could be further from the truth. I'm actually genuinely laughing at the thought of it.

I spent many blissful years working in academia after my masters. I haven't quite finished my PhD yet but I hope to one day. Need to wait until the kids are bigger now.

There's a place for all kinds of writing in culture. All kinds. I can't stand Wings personally but grassroots blogs like his have a not insignificant amount of cultural and political power and to dismiss that because you don't like the adverts or his 'babyish' style is very short sighted indeed.

@TheShadowyFeminist

Is anyone minded to continue these threads? It's certainly an arduous task keeping things going but if there's interest still, I can start a new thread.

I'm willing!

@GreenlandTheMovie the Wings site might not be for you, but at the moment it is relevant to the discussion we are having regarding fraud in the SNP. I quite like his satirical and biting style - but more important is that he is a trusted source by many insiders, who leak highly relevant and timely information to him. It's hard to ignore the Wings site if you are interested in Scottish politics. Academic journal articles have their place, but it is generally around 5 years after events.

I was broadly enjoying discussion.

Me too.

Maybe a 'broadly enjoyable, less confrontational' thread heading could help change the tone/direction?

I really am interested in your take on the accounts 🙂 cos I can't read them. I'm not an accountant & can't interpret a lot of the details involved.

[quote sessell]@GreenlandTheMovie the Wings site might not be for you, but at the moment it is relevant to the discussion we are having regarding fraud in the SNP. I quite like his satirical and biting style - but more important is that he is a trusted source by many insiders, who leak highly relevant and timely information to him. It's hard to ignore the Wings site if you are interested in Scottish politics. Academic journal articles have their place, but it is generally around 5 years after events.[/quote]
I don't doubt the ability of a blog to respond quickly to current events, but I genuinely cannot cope with the way he writes. I just keep thinking, drop the posters, insults, silly name calling and long winded verbose narrative, and simply state the point!

I think the fact that an internet blogger is a "trusted source" says a lot about the lack of transparency and accountability within the Scottish Executive.

We really have to talk about the bigger issues, and I'd really like to promote knowledge of the idea that there is a big constitutional problem right now with the way things are set up, which is facilitating these constant scandals, and that constitutional law is something that non-academics discuss in other countries, because it is considered so important that it is discussed in the schools.

@TheShadowyFeminist

Is anyone minded to continue these threads? It's certainly an arduous task keeping things going but if there's interest still, I can start a new thread.

I think we should keep going until the election! Don't feel you need to keep things going if it feels a burden though @TheShadowyFeminist these things tend to have their own momentum. I drop in most days and it's useful to see the latest updates and add my own view/ information if relevant.

We really have to talk about the bigger issues, and I'd really like to promote knowledge of the idea that there is a big constitutional problem right now with the way things are set up, which is facilitating these constant scandals, and that constitutional law is something that non-academics discuss in other countries, because it is considered so important that it is discussed in the schools.

I think this is an excellent point. And a good reason to keep things going.

Maybe we should move away from the Salmond v Sturgeon narrative & just go for a critical look at the wider constitutional issues?

[quote forfucksakenett]@GreenlandTheMovie nothing could be further from the truth. I'm actually genuinely laughing at the thought of it.

I spent many blissful years working in academia after my masters. I haven't quite finished my PhD yet but I hope to one day. Need to wait until the kids are bigger now.

There's a place for all kinds of writing in culture. All kinds. I can't stand Wings personally but grassroots blogs like his have a not insignificant amount of cultural and political power and to dismiss that because you don't like the adverts or his 'babyish' style is very short sighted indeed.

[/quote]
I agree with you; different styles of writing and different publishers all have a place and I think it's important to read broadly. Especially when it comes to rapidly evolving political topics. I also find it interesting to see the way different publications, with different slants, present the same story. It's always amusing if you can find the same event being covered in both the Daily Mail and the Guardian as they're often virtually unrecogniseable with the truth somewhere in the middle.

Wings connects with people who mainstream media don't and it's useful to have a knowledge of the info that is spreading in these sort of blogs. I think he's also been around for long enough to have some fairly decent sources inside the SNP so it's always interesting from that point of view.

@TheShadowyFeminist

We really have to talk about the bigger issues, and I'd really like to promote knowledge of the idea that there is a big constitutional problem right now with the way things are set up, which is facilitating these constant scandals, and that constitutional law is something that non-academics discuss in other countries, because it is considered so important that it is discussed in the schools.

I think this is an excellent point. And a good reason to keep things going.

Maybe we should move away from the Salmond v Sturgeon narrative & just go for a critical look at the wider constitutional issues?

I think we almost need a general "What's happening in Scottish Politics" thread, but with a no cheerleading rule! I don't want a thread full of peope claiming either independence or Westminster is fabulous, I think it's far more interesting to actually discuss the challenges. It's really hard to do that if people just stick rigidly in camps and lob "whatabout" over the fence.

@TheShadowyFeminist ooft, I think conversation would dry up if you narrowed it down like that. We're almost there so new thread needed asap. Constitutional issues are an element in this debate but I think we should stick with Salmond v Sturgeon round 7.

I’ve found these threads really interesting and I’ve learned a lot from many posters. They have always managed somehow to get back on track when things got a bit confrontational. It’s too easy to get stuck in an echo chamber so reasonable debate and info sharing is very healthy IMO!

I think we almost need a general "What's happening in Scottish Politics" thread, but with a no cheerleading rule! I don't want a thread full of peope claiming either independence or Westminster is fabulous, I think it's far more interesting to actually discuss the challenges. It's really hard to do that if people just stick rigidly in camps and lob "whatabout" over the fence.

Agreed. It's the challenges that I find most interesting & it's usually what keeps me engaged. It's why I'd never joined a political party as I hate the idea of being tied to a party line or getting sucked into the cult of personality.

Just need to think of a witty title now...🤔

I don't think it's possible to try and police a thread by saying no cheerleading or similar.

The conversation goes where it goes I think. All opinions are relevant / valid.

I've learned a lot from this thread and some posters are super impressive even though I don't agree with their politicsZ

Yes sometimes I feel like I’m typing with my knuckles compared to how articulate lots of posters are on this thread!

@TheShadowyFeminist

Is anyone minded to continue these threads? It's certainly an arduous task keeping things going but if there's interest still, I can start a new thread.

I've really appreciated the threads, though haven't contributed much! I still feel a bit of an outsider in Scottish politics, having only lived in Scotland 15 years and a lot of the factions and historical arguments go totally over my head. It's definitely more than "Salmond vs sturgeon" now, but I do enjoy reading those of you with a lot more knowledge of it all - and I do hope the threads continue - at least until the election!

I have to say, much as I'm no fan of wings' politics (and general character), I am enjoying the ripping apart of the indy movement from within its ranks... Bit of schadenfreude, maybe? Though given how well the non-indy movement have behaved generally over the past decade I have no high horse, obviously. And although I'm reasonably well educated (though with only one PhD) reading political/ legal stuff gives me a headache very quickly - so I have to say, I'm quite in favour of the dumbing down of that to a level even plebs like me can understand.

New thread

* I think we almost need a general "What's happening in Scottish Politics" thread, but with a no cheerleading rule! I don't want a thread full of peope claiming either independence or Westminster is fabulous, I think it's far more interesting to actually discuss the challenges. It's really hard to do that if people just stick rigidly in camps and lob "whatabout" over the fence.*

I really agree with this. And it’s easy to get sucked in when it starts. I really just want to keep up, find things out and enjoy the discussion so I’ll be mindful of that.