The Fall Out Continues - thread 6

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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The under declared cash was reported in today’s Sunday Times, seems like its being reported across a few media outlets so we will see what comes out of it now that the press are interested.

[quote forfucksakenett]@GreenlandTheMovie

Your tone is spectacularly rude and very superior. I have said several times that this is new to me yet still you persist with the 'do you even...' tone. I sincerely hope that you don't speak to people in your professional career like that.

There is no shame in ignorance. It's disheartening that you seem to believe there is. Nor does ignorance determine intelligence. I have managed to come this far without understanding the harmonisation of FOI requests across Europe. Forgive me for thinking that this is a bit of a niche topic. I assume FOI does exist in Scotland just in a different form?

Is FOI a human right? I'm not so sure it is but happy to be corrected.
[/quote]
FOI rights emanate from the Right to Good Administration, which is contained in the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights. Not the ECHR. EU membership confers stronger, additional human rights to those basic ones contained within the ECHR. ie there are two sources of human rights for EU member states.

@forfucksakenett

I think there are probably a lot of voters like you *@Happinessisawarmcervix* .

Out of interest who do you think you will vote for now?

I’m at something of a loss, mainly owing to being Terfy McTerf Face. The Lib Dems have made it clear that if you want to discuss some rules that keep penises out of women’s prisons then they don’t want your vote, nor do the SNP and nor do the Greens. I’ll wait and see a bit more of how Alba plays out on the GC front.

@happygolurkey

Forgive me for thinking that this is a bit of a niche topic.

yes, I'm sure it'll be at the forefront of everyone's mind on polling day .

anyone at any time can request an FOI to any local authority or public body of any kind in Scotland, whether from here or abroad.
Think what's being suggested is that the SNP are desperate to give away this right and it was only Westminster that stepped in and stopped them.

however, the poster then goes on to quote the Scottish Government's response as saying:
'We believe Scottish legislation is more appropriate as Scotland already has very robust freedom of information legislation under FOISA which covers all information, including environmental information'

So it doesn't sound to me like they were trying to take away FOI rights in the way suggested

The point is that the SNP constantly promote their keeneness on EU membership for an independent Scotland, yet in practice have a poor track record of supporting EU measures that increase local democracy and accountability.

Since FOI rights come from the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, I wouldn't count on them continuing in Scotland in the way they are at present, since there is now no EU to enforce them here.

And, by the way, happygolurkey "the poster" has a name. You see how I'm courteous enough to use yours? Would you mind using mine and returning the courtesy instead of referring to me in the third person.

To be fair @GreenlandTheMovie there is almost nothing courteous about any of your posts so far. You having the brass neck to call someone impolite has given me a laugh though.

@Happinessisawarmcervix terfy mcterfface 🤣🙈 yeah I think Alba have come out as GC but I couldn't be 100 % certain.

@forfucksakenett

To be fair *@GreenlandTheMovie* there is almost nothing courteous about any of your posts so far. You having the brass neck to call someone impolite has given me a laugh though.

OK, I'll put it another way. There are a lot of men in certain professions in Scotland who have got into positions of power because there are only 5 million people for them to compete against in Scotland. If they were competing in a country with a larger population, its doubtful that they would have got where they are, because they're not that good.

(save one election) I've always voted Labour. I actually do my research and know what each party stands for beyond being pro/anti independence. The difference is that others don't seem to care. Its freedom and freedom only.

My constituency vote is going to Labour because a vote for anyone else is wasted. its SNP vs Labour.

My list vote is going to the Conservatives. Green will be very bottom of that list with SNP second bottom. Again all based on proper research and not pro/anti independence.

@GreenlandTheMovie that's weird because I didn't realise that Scottish jobs were only for Scottish people? Where do you work that that's the case?

In my current job my head of service is English.

In my last position the board was made up of an American, a Canadian, a French woman and two English folk. Not a Scot to be seen. (Literary type place).

Similarly Scottish people can and do work elsewhere.

@GreenlandTheMovie I would bet my mortgage on the fact we're still be able to submit FOI requests. I did think that's what you meant but was sure I must be missing something. I'm more interested in aspects such as the EU working hours directive being lost in a post Brexit UK. And ensuring that refugees have human rights and are not viewed as lesser humans by the Government ( especially regarding children who arrive in a country on their own ).

[quote forfucksakenett]@GreenlandTheMovie that's weird because I didn't realise that Scottish jobs were only for Scottish people? Where do you work that that's the case?

In my current job my head of service is English.

In my last position the board was made up of an American, a Canadian, a French woman and two English folk. Not a Scot to be seen. (Literary type place).

Similarly Scottish people can and do work elsewhere.
[/quote]
Goodness me. Well, lets not hope any of them are at home visiting family when requesting an EIR. That would really set the cat amongst the pigeons!

The point is, I'm a Scot who was working abroad when that offensive response about EIRs came in from the Scottish Government, that most FOI requests came from Scottish people living in Scotland, and they couldn't possibly imagine why someone not currently in Scotland could possibly make a FOI or EIR request.

Kind of not really sure why the EU exists at times, aren't they?

In my field, when you read the output of people working in the EU in the private sector, and compare it with some of the stuff coming out of the Scottish Government and related public bodies, its all too obvious that it just isn't the same quality.

apologies GreenlandTheMovie. I did in previous posts but was trying to post hurriedly and had a name 'blank' and didn't bother to backspace to the previous page to remind myself, which i should have.

I'm personally not aware of any gaps in local democracy or accountability in Scotland so not sure which EU measures they've not supported. I know you've said in previous posts that you object to the Scottish Government pointing out Scotland's 'unique' characteristics in relation to EU law. From my own perspective, I can't see how it can be a bad thing for Scotland, or any country, to point out it's own unique characteristics.

I would imagine there would be an absolute outcry if they tried to drop human rights we currently enjoy from being in the EU, once we are out and I certainly would fight that tooth and nail. From the quote you gave though it didn't sound like they were trying to stop people in Scotland getting FOI rights, just that they felt this was already robustly covered in Scotland.

@fandabbydoozy

(save one election) I've always voted Labour. I actually do my research and know what each party stands for beyond being pro/anti independence. The difference is that others don't seem to care. Its freedom and freedom only.

My constituency vote is going to Labour because a vote for anyone else is wasted. its SNP vs Labour.

My list vote is going to the Conservatives. Green will be very bottom of that list with SNP second bottom. Again all based on proper research and not pro/anti independence.

I'm sorry you feel like that.

As I said in my previous post I do, of course, consider the politics. Independence is important to me so I factor that in.

The greens, for example, wouldn't be my route to independence because there are some things in their politics I just don't agree with. Sadly actually. I would love to be a green.

@fandabbydoozy

(save one election) I've always voted Labour. I actually do my research and know what each party stands for beyond being pro/anti independence. The difference is that others don't seem to care. Its freedom and freedom only.

My constituency vote is going to Labour because a vote for anyone else is wasted. its SNP vs Labour.

My list vote is going to the Conservatives. Green will be very bottom of that list with SNP second bottom. Again all based on proper research and not pro/anti independence.

What Conservative policies have you researched that impacted your decision to give them your vote?

I'm more interested in aspects such as the EU working hours directive being lost in a post Brexit UK

this is the big worry, yes

[quote StarryEyeSurprise]@GreenlandTheMovie I would bet my mortgage on the fact we're still be able to submit FOI requests. I did think that's what you meant but was sure I must be missing something. I'm more interested in aspects such as the EU working hours directive being lost in a post Brexit UK. And ensuring that refugees have human rights and are not viewed as lesser humans by the Government ( especially regarding children who arrive in a country on their own ).[/quote]
Its an interesting point. Perhaps I should write an article on the likely erosion of EU former rights and what order they're likely to occur in.

Considering how redacted or excused by "not in the public interest" many FOI requests come back, I wouldn't be so confident. Added to that we are often requesting things which should be public in the first place in a healthy, accountable democracy.

I agree that working time and erosion of other employment rights are likely to go. The Scottish Government does often get interpretation of existing human rights spectacularly wrong though. The Named Persons legislation was never going to work. God knows why it even got as far as it did. What a waste of time and money.

The minimum alcohol pricing legislation was said by the Advocate-General to the CJEU to be disproportionate, because as anyone who works with EU law knows, the preferred method is always achieving the same result by less onerous means, such as taxation. The Scottish Government ignored the A-G's advice, which it could do because of Brexit.

The Hate Crime legislation breaches several human rights. Its very odd why things like this keep happening in Scotland, but I do know that its being used as a case study in a few universities in Europe. Its fairly unusual what is happening here, because in most European countries, human rights are always increasing, not being eroded and certainly not being eroded by devolved governments subject to relatively few constitutional checks and balances.

happygolurkey I'm personally not aware of any gaps in local democracy or accountability in Scotland so not sure which EU measures they've not supported. I know you've said in previous posts that you object to the Scottish Government pointing out Scotland's 'unique' characteristics in relation to EU law. From my own perspective, I can't see how it can be a bad thing for Scotland, or any country, to point out it's own unique characteristics.

Thats actually a really dangerous thing, because this "special and unique characteristics" nonsense can be used for almost anything. Whereas proper doctrines of law are developed by the courts, not invented by politicians who stand to benefit from them.

And from an EU context, where unanimity is generally required, its an utter nonsense. EU member states just do not get to divert from EU law and policy because they think they are "special" or "unique". Every country could claim to be special or unique in some way.

Why don't you try breaking the law, and telling the police you think you are "special and unique" so therefore the law doesn't apply to you in the same way as it does to other people. Then let us know how you get on.

Why don't you try breaking the law, and telling the police you think you are "special and unique" so therefore the law doesn't apply to you in the same way as it does to other people. Then let us know how you get on.

That's not an accurate analogy as you well know, as what you are referring to is a discussion over the law - not Scotland wilfully breaking it. Unless I'm missing something? Where has Scotland broken the law then claimed it should get away with it because it is 'special'?
And I'm sorry, but I can't see what is wrong with any country putting forward, during discussion, unique characteristics which it might think worth consideration.

I'm exactly the kind of person who is supposed to 'hate' the conservatives - disabled person, Scottish etc.

I believe Brexit has actually worked out better than expected (and I voted remain), I believe the economy should recover and open up (although I do like WFH personally) when other parties seem to want forever lockdown, I believe the vaccine roll out has gone really well and that was WM rather than SG, and I like that the Scottish Tories will repeal the hate crime bill. their approach to making mortgages easier, wrap around childcare, and catching up on missed education is all appealing too.

When people think Tories they think WM Tories and that's the other thing that really annoys me about SNP voters - that and the "if you hate the SNP you must be a Tory". I'm a natural Labour voter as I said.

and anyway, this is meant to be an snp vs alba and NS vs AS thread isn't it?

or is it another thread taken over by the "Nicola can do no wrong" and "Independence no matter what" brigade?

So this is how the EU works:

ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/applying-eu-law/infringement-procedure_en

Member states are fined, heavily, for non-compliance with EU law. So several newer pieces of legislation already discussed are in breach of EU law and would result in multiple fines for Scotland if it were an EU member state.

No member state can put forward "discussion" or "special circumstances" as an excuse - it is strict liability.

ec.europa.eu/internal_market/scoreboard/performance_by_governance_tool/infringements/index_en.htm

In addition, much of the licensing system of the property market in Scotland is in breach of EU competition law. Sellers' surveys almost certainly are. Rent pressure zones and restricted "approved contractor" lists of who can carry out compliance work are too.

Fines imposed by the EU against member states are in the millions of euros. If the member state doesn't comply, they are fined again.

All of this is hypoethtical of course, because much of recent Scottish legislation is so non-EU law compliant that any membership enquiry would necessarily involve a wholesale review and likely rewriting of much of its legal system and legislation before it was even allowed to apply for EU membership.

happygolurkey And I'm sorry, but I can't see what is wrong with any country putting forward, during discussion, unique characteristics which it might think worth consideration.

And who would Scotland put forward this argument to? The European Court of Justice when disagreeing with a fine imposed by the EU Commission? "Sorry but we think we are special and unique here so we don't think EU law should apply to us in the same way it applies to other EU member states"?

Thats absolutely ridiculous. While a large, rich member state such as the UK might have got some leeway over enforcement actions, a tiny, new and not particularly rich member state would be laughed out of town.

You really think thats the way the EU works? Is this a commonly held belief amongst SNP supporters? It might be worthwhile actually sending some of them to work in the EU...

@fandabbydoozy

I'm exactly the kind of person who is supposed to 'hate' the conservatives - disabled person, Scottish etc.

I believe Brexit has actually worked out better than expected (and I voted remain), I believe the economy should recover and open up (although I do like WFH personally) when other parties seem to want forever lockdown, I believe the vaccine roll out has gone really well and that was WM rather than SG, and I like that the Scottish Tories will repeal the hate crime bill. their approach to making mortgages easier, wrap around childcare, and catching up on missed education is all appealing too.

When people think Tories they think WM Tories and that's the other thing that really annoys me about SNP voters - that and the "if you hate the SNP you must be a Tory". I'm a natural Labour voter as I said.

You've contradicted yourself a fair bit here but hey ho. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@fandabbydoozy

and anyway, this is meant to be an snp vs alba and NS vs AS thread isn't it?

or is it another thread taken over by the "Nicola can do no wrong" and "Independence no matter what" brigade?

It's a thread that goes where the conversation takes it. Individuals don't get to police it. Ignore and scroll or engage - your choice.