The Fall Out Continues - thread 6

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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And when I say 'be able' I don't mean in terms of knowledge/ ability. I mean in terms of ow frustrating a process it would be for him.

@forfucksakenett

It's very hard *@GreenlandTheMovie* to continue this discussion because you are exceptionally rude and quite judgemental in most of your posts so I'm almost frightened to ask / mention but I am also struggling to understand why Adam Tomkins would want / be able to devise the constitutional path towards an independent Scotland. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Surely the conversation would be something like:

Hey Adam can you help us with this thing?
No thanks. I don't agree with what you're trying to achieve.

Unless I'm missing something?

He's a very clever man but I'm sure there are other professors of Law who are just as knowledgeable. Scotland isn't going to fall into the sea because he's not in Government.

This demonising thing of opposing views that strongly politically activist people try to do to anyone who challenges them is actually quite harmful to society as a whole. Its also not very moral.

There are literally 3 professors of constitutional law in Scotland. There are no constitutional practising lawyers, because we don't have a constitutional court. There are however plenty of politically motivated solicitors and advocates who would come at it from an unintentionally or intentionally biased perspective, but who would lack the same breadth of knowledge.

That type of expertise should not be lost in a small country. And Glasgow University is an internationally renowned university, not just any university. You have to be really, spectacularly good at knowing your stuff to be a professor of anything there.

Its a bit like how Sir Hugh Pennington has been sidelined in the biggest international pandemic in a hundred years.

Something very strange is going on in Scotland, something which doesn't happen in other countries to the same degree.

Its really sad to hear and to read this dismissing of genuine expertise. Its really awful in fact. Ignoring world recognised experts in their field in favour of government shrews is not good for any country. The fact that you have that bizarre little imaginary conversation going on in your head is so weird and misunderstanding of how constitutional lawyers work, I don't even know where to start. Its actually chilling that you would dismiss someone like that.

How many people will actually be left in Scotland if you keep demonising those of us brave enough to speak out when we see bad things happening?

And I have to say, before I get accused of something else - I'm pretty neutral on Scottish independence. My personal viewpoint is that I don't think Scotland is ready for it yet, mostly due to the poor constitutional set up, but I don't care either way whether it happens in the future.

I have a Scottish mother but my father is from another EU state so therefore I have dual nationality/passport and cultural upbringing/language, and I almost certainly would not choose to live in Scotland should it become independent nor carry out work there. So no personal ambition here.

This demonising thing of opposing views that strongly politically activist people try to do to anyone who challenges them is actually quite harmful to society as a whole. Its also not very moral.

I agree with that. It's rife in the Indy debate in particular but it applies in many areas & is getting worse.

@TheShadowyFeminist

This demonising thing of opposing views that strongly politically activist people try to do to anyone who challenges them is actually quite harmful to society as a whole. Its also not very moral.

I agree with that. It's rife in the Indy debate in particular but it applies in many areas & is getting worse.

I always just assume that they must want to reduce the size of the Scottish population by making life fairly unpleasant here for people that have differing opinions? Maybe get it down to about 3.5 million or so, and then encourage mass immigration?

Jesus.

I'm stepping away from this now because yet again I've made it clear that I don't understand how constitutional law works. I was hoping you might explain rather than attack but no.

I wasn't aware that I had demonised anyone and certainly not to the extent that it was 'chilling'

Glasgow is a good uni yes but there are plenty of plonkers that work there too (I've had many professional contacts there myself - albeit not in the law department clearly). Your uncritical assumption that everyone who lectures there must be fabulous is a tad worrying.

I think it's fabulous that constitutional law professors wouldn't have the same political bias ordinary lawyers do. They must be superhuman!

@forfucksakenett

Jesus.

I'm stepping away from this now because yet again I've made it clear that I don't understand how constitutional law works. I was hoping you might explain rather than attack but no.

I wasn't aware that I had demonised anyone and certainly not to the extent that it was 'chilling'

Glasgow is a good uni yes but there are plenty of plonkers that work there too (I've had many professional contacts there myself - albeit not in the law department clearly). Your uncritical assumption that everyone who lectures there must be fabulous is a tad worrying.

I think it's fabulous that constitutional law professors wouldn't have the same political bias ordinary lawyers do. They must be superhuman!

What a drama llama. No-one has "attacked" you but flounce if you wish.

I would trust a constitutional lawyer to see the bigger picture over many an advocate and in most countries, theres far less of a division between academic lawyers and the profession than there is in the UK. For instance, its not unusual for academic lawyers to work on cases before the courts. Thats not to say that there aren't many skilled advocates out there but constitutional law just isn't a field of practice here because we don't have constitutional courts. There are certainly advocates whose career have advanced due to their support of the SNP causes who would probably be at the forefront of moulding any new constitutional model of Scotland. Not sure thats a good thing. I can't say why on here. But having read the output of both, I'd definatley prefer the constitutional academic lawyer to show a broader perspective and to be more interested in basic morality and ethics. Thats just my impression.

I'm afraid I cannot explain the workings of constitutions and constitutional law on here in a few short sentences. Its something the basics of which is taught in schools in many European countries as standard, and its a shame that it isn't here. That might be why its easier to have a conversation about politics with someone from my father's home country without it descending into petty insults and argument, because its barely possible in the UK.

Lets just remember the fact that most European countries, fairly recently, have collected all their experts together to think abut what they need to put in their own constitutions. The UK and Scotland don't even think about that. Individuals have almost no ability to enforce their constitutional rights.

This is quite an interesting development in the election campaign for both SNP & Alba.

Some high profile Scottish Asian Indy supporters have switched to Alba, and formed Scottish Asians For Alba. They claim to be bringing 400 more Scottish Asian Indy supporters with them, & have applied to become Alba's 1st affiliated group, as well as donating £10k to Alba's funds.

Link to tweet with statement

In response, there's a "new diverse" Scottish Asians for Indy 4 yes team in place, in response to the loss of what appears to be key/high profile Scottish Asian SNP members.

Link to Tweet from SAFI4yes member

What's interesting is the twitter handle for SAFI4yes group has been dormant since 2016. And such is the urgency that this situation has created, Sturgeon herself took part in their meeting to respond to what's happened.

It looks to me that Humza's re-election campaign might be in trouble if he's losing a huge chunk of his base support & given Sturgeon's reaction, I think this has got her more worried than any other defection. Humza was, ironically I think, more 'dented' by the HCB than Sturgeon & the defections here might actually hurt someone Sturgeon herself named as a possible successor to her in her interview with Dani Garavelli.

@GreenlandTheMovie I'm a bit confused. You really were kind of rude.

No drama, no flounce, just stepping back from the batshit.

[quote forfucksakenett]@GreenlandTheMovie I'm a bit confused. You really were kind of rude.

No drama, no flounce, just stepping back from the batshit. [/quote]
You have called me rude and accused me of attacking you now I think 7 times in this one thread.

Now not one, but two, announcements of your intention to flounce.

I can only suggest counselling to help with all the trauma you have endured on this thread. I'm actually feeling quite bullied and victimised by you, in what should be a safe space to discuss our views and opinions. All the times you repeatedly accuse me of attacking you - very bullying, designed to target one individual and single them out.

This thread is about a really important topic, the future of our country, no less. Its far bigger than you, or I. If you really cannot cope with internet discussion, then perhaps take up a new hobby.

I'm absolutely fine thank you. Counselling will not be required. I'm a little confused and very bemused but nothing more than that.

I'm sorry that me pointing out your rudeness and trying to step away from the strangeness has made you feel bullied. I'm not sure that's what bullying is right enough but hey ho 🤷🏻‍♀️

Thanks @TheShadowyFeminist - that is really interesting. Again it’s suggesting an SNP on the back foot - gives the impression that the leadership only care about Scottish Asians after a large-scale change in affiliation to Alba, otherwise they’ll be taken for granted.

On a more lightweight note I saw that The Proclaimers are backing the SNP1/Alba2 campaign. They’re such longstanding indie supporters, I think this will also influence a few.

This thread has gone rather off beam.

It was not a NS vs AS thread afaik but more a plague on both their houses in answer to pp. Also not an Adam Tomkins fanclub. He is not homegrown being English born and educated.

Somewhat odd to suggest that there are no other constitutional experts in Scotland given all we ever do is discuss the constitution. Also best not to flex while demonstrating spectacular levels of ignorance.

Perhaps some need reminding that it was Joanna Cherry who, via the ECJ case, reminded both the EU and the UK that Art 50 was unilaterally revocable. It was also her who brought the case against Boris and co re the prorogation of WM which was settled by the Supreme court via the Scottish Courts. The Supreme Court has reporting lines from all UK Nations not just England. It also has judges representing them all.

I am the same vintage as Joanna Cherry. I can reel off any number of equally qualified and capable contacts working in Scotland and further afield.

The ill tempered exchanges give away a lot of underlying prejudices which make very unpleasant reading.

Anyhow moving on to the Asian community for Alba.

This doesn't hurt Humza at all because it is an endorsement of the supermajority strategy. Their constituency votes will be staying with Humza, Nicola and co.

It may have something to do with a split I vaguely remember in the All Under One Banner movement and a fairly high profile Asian activist.

It is becoming academic whether AT is stepping down on not as it looks pretty nailed on that the Tories will lose their 2nd List seat in Glasgow - probably to Alba but also at risk from Labour. (weak attempt at punning to lighten the mood).

Coming back to an earlier discussion.
The Express are running a story on NS's less than stellar legal career and her somewhat cavalier attitude towards her female clients.

@SempreSuiGeneris

This thread has gone rather off beam.

It was not a NS vs AS thread afaik but more a plague on both their houses in answer to pp. Also not an Adam Tomkins fanclub. He is not homegrown being English born and educated.

Somewhat odd to suggest that there are no other constitutional experts in Scotland given all we ever do is discuss the constitution. Also best not to flex while demonstrating spectacular levels of ignorance.

Perhaps some need reminding that it was Joanna Cherry who, via the ECJ case, reminded both the EU and the UK that Art 50 was unilaterally revocable. It was also her who brought the case against Boris and co re the prorogation of WM which was settled by the Supreme court via the Scottish Courts. The Supreme Court has reporting lines from all UK Nations not just England. It also has judges representing them all.

I am the same vintage as Joanna Cherry. I can reel off any number of equally qualified and capable contacts working in Scotland and further afield.

The ill tempered exchanges give away a lot of underlying prejudices which make very unpleasant reading.

You are actially criticising someone for being English? Thats blatant racism and a really disgusting comment.

How on earth do you think an independent Scotland would get along with treating non Scottish born people as lesser citizens and dismissing their views as less important? Think that would go down well in the EU do you? Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with article 18.

One of the most disgusting comments I've read. What is wrong with some people? Will you be rxaming bloodlines for evidence of Scottish racial purity next? Christ.

@SempreSuiGeneris

Coming back to an earlier discussion. The Express are running a story on NS's less than stellar legal career and her somewhat cavalier attitude towards her female clients.

That one I will give you. I thought NS only worked at a law centre after her traineeship? Nothing wrong with that, many career politicians don't have a great employment record (eg Gordon Brown).

Interested in the attitude towards female clients though. Any links to the article?

Actually I am doing no such thing. I am pushing back on your comment that Adam Tomkins is the only decent "homegrown" constitutional lawyer in Scotland. He is neither Scottish born nor educated so in what sense "homegrown"? Of course he is "Scottish", by the SNP definition, having resided in Scotland for more than 3 months.

Google is your friend.

I'll see if I can find earlier links, but I think it was to do with an investigation into failures with vulnerable clients, legal aid not being applied for and such like. She was deemed to have conduct unbecoming a solicitor or something.

NS left the legal profession and no action was taken on the report but the author of the report was recommended for a judicial post by NS many years in the future.

Might not have that completely correct but it's what I remember from the article.

Re Prof Tomkins - I don't see a situation where he'd be called in to advise an SNP government personally but the fact he's on the opposition benches doesn't make his presence pointless. We need strong opposition with suitable expertise to hold whichever party is in government to account. We need experts to be involved in the parliamentary committees.

At the moment we seem to have a situation where that expertise is ignored (along with paid for legal advise where they don't like it, see the SNP list topping for an example.) There's an attitude of "I dont care what X thinks because they aren't on our side" which is incredibly unproductive.

Our politics are far too tribal and lacking in the cooperation seen in many countries and that means that many people who could make a valuable contribution are ignored.

She was accused of failing a vulnerable client but cleared after investigation.

It's all in the Daily Express article.

I say article tentatively because it's the Daily Express.

Link to express article

Annie Wells gives her take on Sturgeon as well in this piece.

@WaxOnFeckOff

I'll see if I can find earlier links, but I think it was to do with an investigation into failures with vulnerable clients, legal aid not being applied for and such like. She was deemed to have conduct unbecoming a solicitor or something.

NS left the legal profession and no action was taken on the report but the author of the report was recommended for a judicial post by NS many years in the future.

Might not have that completely correct but it's what I remember from the article.

I've seen this widely commented on here by posters but the only actual link I can find is to a blog that makes this claim. I see no verified reports.

When newspapers report it they say she was cleared.

I'm not great with google though so could be wrong!