The Fall Out Continues - thread 6

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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Sorry for the italics fail.

I think there are probably a lot of voters like you @Happinessisawarmcervix .

Out of interest who do you think you will vote for now?

But, how are they still so popular?

For me, when I see decisions like the Scottish Government's free school meals pledge last year while Westminster's Tories voted against it and basically had to be shamed into a u-turn, it throws into relief the stark contrast between the two. It reminds me of the sorts of decision i'd prefer to be taken in my country. It's about choices.
So while there are many things I wish SNP were doing better and things I disagree with, on balance, I feel they are taking us more towards the sort of society I want to live in.
And let's look at the alternative: Being talked down to by Unionists with the likes of:
Do you even understand this sort of thing? And other such condescending comments seen throughout this thread.
No thanks.

Yes @happygolurkey

I agree that the SNP aren't perfect but when I look around there really is no alternative for me.

I will vote whoever has the most chance of keeping the SNP out, so around here, that's Labour, by the smallest margin.

@forfucksakenett

And actually I do think that streamlining processes for staff is a valid reason for simplifying things.

Never at the expense of human rights.

Why would you think that Scottish people deserve less human rights than the rest of Europe? Thats what would have happened if the Scottish Government had competence in that area, and could have overruled the UK Government.

Do you even realise that if the Scottish Government pulled a stunt like this if it ever did become part of the EU, it would be fined heavily by the EU Commission?

Do you even know what harmonisation in a European context is? How can SNP supporters not know basic stuff like this, when all they do is witter on about how an independent Scotland is going to magically become part of the EU?

This is complete manipulation of the facts. Its really dishonest.

happygolurkey Do you even understand this sort of thing? And other such condescending comments seen throughout this thread.

You don't understand why Scots would want the same FOI rights as the whole of the rest of Europe??

Please explain to me what human right the SNP wished to take away ( if that's what you're saying)

@fandabbydoozy

a supermajority means very little if those in that super majority don't want to work together or cannot agree on how independence would look.

As for the polls, who tends to do the polls? Is it not mostly the young / students etc who sign up to e.g. YouGov? So I'm not sure how representative of Scotland the polls really are.

Poll results are generally weighted in some way ( decent ones, rather than facebook specials!) - you have to look at each one but often there is a breakdown of the group who were polled and the weightings applied. So the survey responses being dominated by students wouldn't actually matter if it's a well structured survey.

Sorry ShadowyFeminist I just don't have time. If you read the legislative proposals of the Scottish Government, there are, as is par for the course, some crackers in there. I can't be too personal, but lets just say that when you are used to dealing with a certain level of debate, some of the responses from those who should know better aren't of the quality that you become accustomed to.

@GreenlandTheMovie

Sorry ShadowyFeminist I just don't have time. If you read the legislative proposals of the Scottish Government, there are, as is par for the course, some crackers in there. I can't be too personal, but lets just say that when you are used to dealing with a certain level of debate, some of the responses from those who should know better aren't of the quality that you become accustomed to.

I'm only asking for the human right you referred to above ( thicko here - willing to be educated) . The one relating to your comment- 'Why should people in Scotland have less human rights than those in Europe?'

@StarryEyeSurprise

Please explain to me what human right the SNP wished to take away ( if that's what you're saying)

Freedom of information rights!

Not taken away, they didn't want them added to, as in the rest of Europe. The UK Government overruled them.

But with a track record like that, I would hardly trust an independent Scotland under SNP or similar rule to erode our FOI rights. They really don't like transparent government, or holding politicians to account.

Basically, I get the feeling that there are a number of individuals who can't cut it elsewhere or in a bigger country, who really want to rule Scotland as their own personal fiefdom, with a compliant population who don't challenge them, so they can kid themselves on that they're important/clever, etc..

You don't understand why Scots would want the same FOI rights as the whole of the rest of Europe??

the point I was making (to people here baffled as to why anyone could support the SNP) is that Unionists do little to make their arguments that compelling when they talk down to others in the way you and others on this thread do. The constant dismissal of others as 'thick' and having no understanding doesn't do much to convince me to engage and listen anyway.
But don't let me stop you Greenland Carry on by all means.

@GreenlandTheMovie

Your tone is spectacularly rude and very superior. I have said several times that this is new to me yet still you persist with the 'do you even...' tone. I sincerely hope that you don't speak to people in your professional career like that.

There is no shame in ignorance. It's disheartening that you seem to believe there is. Nor does ignorance determine intelligence. I have managed to come this far without understanding the harmonisation of FOI requests across Europe. Forgive me for thinking that this is a bit of a niche topic. I assume FOI does exist in Scotland just in a different form?

Is FOI a human right? I'm not so sure it is but happy to be corrected.

Basically, I get the feeling that there are a number of individuals who can't cut it elsewhere or in a bigger country, who really want to rule Scotland as their own personal fiefdom, with a compliant population who don't challenge them, so they can kid themselves on that they're important/clever, etc..

Yes this sounds very unlikely. A group of individuals so mediocre that they have a master plan of independence so that they can thrive in their averageness.

It's also very insulting to the people of Scotland.

I think if a poster is so intent on bringing others down in terms of their knowledge and Intelligence then they should be a bit more careful that everything they say meets their own high standards because quite frankly this is ridiculous.

If there was an independent Scotland, the SNP would quickly cease to exisit - they are basically an independence / anti westminster party. They wouldn't be able to blame their failures on anyone else and their faithful followers would quickly realise how sucked in they were when things get cut and taxes rise and their counterparts in England have better lives! I despair I really do at how naive people can be.

I wonder also if we would get a hard scexit or soft scexit...pretty sure they would want a soft scexit because they just couldn't cope.

@fandabbydoozy

Again a very patronising comment.

I have no intention of voting SNP in and independent Scotland and many don't. Still forever hoping that Labour get their act together .

I'm not naive, I just have a different opinion to you.

so you're voting SNP for one thing, and one thing only? FFS

This is the thing that worries me about the SNP. They are a lobby group who are dressed up as a political party, and people are treating the election like a change.com petition for independence.

Independence isn’t going to happen in the next 5 years, that’s been confirmed over and over again, but the country will continue in it’s downward trajectory in almost every area. With 5 more years of the SNP Scotland will be even further from independence.

I'm absolutely no expert in legal drafting, but the interaction of the FOI regs and EIR absolutely does my head in. I request environmental information from public bodies frequently (under their duty under another set of regs!) and their responses, after a couple of months, generally take a page justifying why they chose the regulations they did to consider it under, and which exceptions they have chosen to apply and so on....I JUST WANT THE SODDING SPREADSHEET - WE BOTH KNOW YOU HAVE IT AND I'M ASKING FOR IT TO MAKE YOUR JOB EASIER FURTHER DOWN THE LINE. And the whole process takes longer than their statutory timescale to provide it under "my" set of regulations (or used to until the EU regs changed that to allow them longer...). Yes, I'm glad we have the human rights to request this information, and I'm glad there are certain minimum rights across Europe but my God, it's made a lot more complicated than it needs to be! It's not even that the EIR is more stringent than FOI... It's just stringent in different ways. And whoever let people verbally request information needs a slap round the face with a set of unredacted emission documents.

Sorry, totally derailing rant, but mentioning EIR has triggered me...

Well, yes and no. Independence is obviously a big factor in my choice but For me the SNP are the best of the bunch at the moment politically as well. Not without their problems of course but all the parties have them.

I think it's commonly accepted that SNP would cease to exist in an independent Scotland isn't it? Or at least cease to exist in its current form.

Forgive me for thinking that this is a bit of a niche topic.

yes, I'm sure it'll be at the forefront of everyone's mind on polling day .

anyone at any time can request an FOI to any local authority or public body of any kind in Scotland, whether from here or abroad.
Think what's being suggested is that the SNP are desperate to give away this right and it was only Westminster that stepped in and stopped them.

however, the poster then goes on to quote the Scottish Government's response as saying:
'We believe Scottish legislation is more appropriate as Scotland already has very robust freedom of information legislation under FOISA which covers all information, including environmental information'

So it doesn't sound to me like they were trying to take away FOI rights in the way suggested

so you're voting SNP for one thing, and one thing only? FFS

fandabbydoozy you've just said the exact same thing yourself here!!

I will vote whoever has the most chance of keeping the SNP out, so around here, that's Labour, by the smallest margin.

@happygolurkey

so you're voting SNP for one thing, and one thing only? FFS

fandabbydoozy you've just said the exact same thing yourself here!!

I will vote whoever has the most chance of keeping the SNP out, so around here, that's Labour, by the smallest margin.

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