The Fall Out Continues - thread 6

[TheShadowyFeminist]

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IIRC it was a £2m donation cause I remember turning to DH and saying any money I won would be aaaaaaaaaalll mines.

Oh dear.

If it’s all really “dirty tricks and conspiracy theory” why don’t they just point to the money in the accounts?

@SempreSuiGeneris

And now we have another "wee forgotten" meeting. Undeclared cash for planning permission bung to the SNP apparently.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-650m-contract-tycoon-snp-23849401

Does everyone else know that the 2014 Indy campaign was funded in large part by a single £1m+ donation from a Lottery winner?

This is absolute tripe.

Bit like her old pal giving planning permission to Donald Trump for his Aberdeen golf course.

Tom Gordon's tweets are very interesting.

They are forfucksakenett. Perspective from the Herald political editor certainly puts another slant on this. Story seems to have more holes in it than Tetleys.

Person who made the complaint did so after reading about the claims on Wings. Then went back to them and said they'd seen a police car outside FM's house a couple of days later, thus verifying for them their own 'story'. Police confirm a complaint was made. That's about it.
Think I'll be waiting for a bit more information of substance before I'm convinced.
Not holding my breath, this thread and its predecessors don't have a very good track record as far as claims being made standing up.

There's tripe and then there's mince.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27361509

Was over £2m according to the BBC. Puts the missing £600k in perspective and makes you wonder who the backers are now. Here was me thinking it was all the enthusiasm for collection buckets down the High Street every other weekend and SNP branded facemasks.

I am no friend of the SNP and have never had any interest in separatism or the politics of splits and differences.

So, I am not really the one to ask this. But, how are they still so popular? Education. Missing money. Political cover ups. Poor governance and money squandered.

Is it simply tribalism combined with a woeful lack of opposition? Or am I missing something they have done or achieved that is swaying voters?

I don’t get it either @Cismyfatarse.

But I see on here as with rl SNP fans that they are simply beyond reproach or criticism to some people.

The lack of an effective and credible opposition holding them to account without it just looking like political point scoring, i would wager. You don’t win elections, the opposition loses them.

The longer people/parties are in power, the more they learn how to maintain the facade while using the levers of power to enact their own agenda. The SNP have been embedded in power for 14 yrs with varying levels of control. They (those who have been there for the duration) have learned how to use the system in a way that makes it difficult for ordinary people to work out what's going on or realise when they're being manipulated &/or gaslighted. Presenting GRA reform as 'admin' is about as disingenuous as it gets.

There's been a lot they've done that's been good (or appears to be good) but it's the spin we hear, not the reality.

Many think that SNP are the reason Scotland doesn't have the uni fees others in the UK have to pay. Blatant misinformation but it's been that long ago that the origins of that policy came from, few now know that this was a LibDem policy redline when they were negotiating to form a coalition administration with Labour way back, so it's the Libdems who are responsible for that policy, not the SNP. It's all the more ironic knowing that the Scottish LibDems redline was agreed by the Scottish Labour Party (at the same time Blair was bringing in uni fees in rUK), given that the scrap uni fees policy the rUK LibDems was what they capitulated on when going into a coalition with the Tories (which as we know hit them hard at the next election).

What grates for me now is the ease with which the SNP can spin their failures out of the prevailing narrative, mainly because they opposition are so poor. SNP failings despite being in power for 14 years rarely gets a proper airing as there's the inevitable spin back to Westminster whataboutery. And the opposition parties are just as responsible for this merry go round as the SNP - because if you are going to challenge the SNP on something, you need 'clean hands' to do that. As was evident with the Tories calling for Sturgeon to resign when they are part of the rUK party not calling for Pritel or Johnson to resign etc.

What's becoming evident from this election is just how low the SNP are willing to go now to maintain their grip on power. It's quite unedifying to witness, especially knowing most of their antics don't cut through to a wider awareness to the electorate.

Person who made the complaint did so after reading about the claims on Wings. Then went back to them and said they'd seen a police car outside FM's house a couple of days later, thus verifying for them their own 'story'. Police confirm a complaint was made

Wrong. Nobody knows why he made the complaint or what he read, all assumptions. Report about police visiting sturgeon came from different source.

More interesting story from Tom Gordon four years ago, reporting on the lost money. Changed his tune a bit hasn’t he.

www.heraldscotland.com/news/15345394.snp-forced-to-reassure-donors-money-raised-to-fight-second-referendum-campaign-will-be-frozen-in-partys-accounts/

The SNP are very much The Establishment. This gives them the "everyone thinks" narrative Cameron was so good at weaponising.

However I see in Glasgow and Edinburgh there is a developing counter culture mostly on the Left. Bonnie Prince Bob discussed above is an example on the Indy side. ClydeBanksy would be a Glasgow based example on the Union side.

opensea.io/assets/0x495f947276749ce646f68ac8c248420045cb7b5e/59236355337775468036864813225093156608547451836010201629884863182300044591105

It feels like it is only a matter of time. At very least would be very difficult to run Indyref2 with the Hopeful Insurgent narrative used in 2014.

@Yakkabee but the point is nobody knows and the theory outlined by happy is as likely as any.

Nobody is reporting anything other than the basic rumour at this point.

I haven't clicked the article from four years ago but surely in most circumstances we'd be more interested in people's thoughts from more recently?

@SempreSuiGeneris

The SNP are very much The Establishment. This gives them the "everyone thinks" narrative Cameron was so good at weaponising.

However I see in Glasgow and Edinburgh there is a developing counter culture mostly on the Left. Bonnie Prince Bob discussed above is an example on the Indy side. ClydeBanksy would be a Glasgow based example on the Union side.

opensea.io/assets/0x495f947276749ce646f68ac8c248420045cb7b5e/59236355337775468036864813225093156608547451836010201629884863182300044591105

It feels like it is only a matter of time. At very least would be very difficult to run Indyref2 with the Hopeful Insurgent narrative used in 2014.

Yes, they are The Establishment, and you have to be careful not to speak out against them if you want to fey anywhere in the tiny fiekds that are in the supposed top elechon in certain sectors in Scotland.

It's a very small world, and whether there's actually that much raiment and true intelligence there is debatable. As opposed to jobs for the boys (and girls). Some of the stuff that comes out of the Scottish government reads as if a school child has written it on occasion. Or a fairly poor level undergraduate.

It's so much easier to go to London or overseas if you're talented and ambitious than to wade through that mire.

Wow.

Do you have an example of this high school standard publication from the SG @GreenlandTheMovie because I'd lov Ed go see that.

@forfucksakenett

Wow.

Do you have an example of this high school standard publication from the SG @GreenlandTheMovie because I'd lov Ed go see that.

Any examples, or many examples, forfucksakenett?

Scotland's Agenda for EU Reform, Scottish Government, August 2014 section 13, on the extension of EU-led FOI requests to environmental concerns:

""On the right to access information within the Member States: more EU competence or action is viewed as unnecessary in order to enable citizens to access official environmental information within Scotland;"

"While there may be some benefits, harmonising rules across the EU on rights to access environmental information has created confusion among staff in public bodies and members of the public about how they differ from FOISA. Harmonisation does not add to the information rights people already have in Scotland under FOISA and almost all EIR requests come from people located in Scotland so there is no benefit in making it easier for people to make requests in various countries as there seems to be little demand for this;"

I remember that I was working as an EU competition lawyer in Brussels at the time and reading that and thinking "wtaf?" Why on earth wouldn't someone outwith Scotland want to make such a request? Do they think Scots don't work abroad or something?

"Scotland and others with freedom of information legislation equivalent to the EIRs being allowed to opt out of the EIRs. This would reduce complexity for requesters and public bodies by allowing all requests to be handled under one regime. We believe Scottish legislation is more appropriate as Scotland already has very robust freedom of information legislation under FOISA which covers all information, including environmental information, and is designed specifically for Scottish circumstances."

This sort of thing isn't just incompetent and produced by people who don't have a clue what they are doing, its deliberately misleading the Scottish people with regards to basic EU rights.

There are plenty of examples of the same sort of thing if you care to read responses to proposed Scottish legislation from certain supposedly informed individuals or on behalf of certain public bodies. It really is quite appalling.

Well IANAL but is this not a decision you don't agree with rather than incompetence?

@forfucksakenett

Well IANAL but is this not a decision you don't agree with rather than incompetence?

Its not a "decision" - its a response. The Scottish Government was consulted as part of the UK Government balance of competencies exercise but lacked individual authority to make a decision on the matter.

Do you even understand this sort of thing? I don't mean to be rude, but opposing harmonisation of FOI rights is something that really strikes at the heart of the whole purpose of the EU. FOI rights come from the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights' Right to Good Administration...

Don't you see something wrong with an actual government using "confusion amongst staff members" as an excuse for limiting democratic rights for its own people...

This sort of low level lack of basic understanding is very frustrating. This standard of response is sadly all too commonplace for the Scottish Government or even local authorities. Its certainly not the same standard of response that you see from any other country.

a supermajority means very little if those in that super majority don't want to work together or cannot agree on how independence would look.

As for the polls, who tends to do the polls? Is it not mostly the young / students etc who sign up to e.g. YouGov? So I'm not sure how representative of Scotland the polls really are.

Greenland, if you have the time (& inclination) I'd be interested in any similar examples. 👍

a supermajority means very little if those in that super majority don't want to work together or cannot agree on how independence would look.

I think this is effectively a 'flex' to shift the dial on claims of either individuals or parties on their 'indy credentials'. The one thing that Alba getting any traction via this election is to push others on actions, as well as push back on Alba for solid plans/policy on the impact of Indy. Either it'll move things to the point where those claiming to want Indy but who in effect do little/nothing to achieve it lose support from Indy supporters or it'll push all of those involved to come up with solid plans & answers to the many Qs on how Indy cockle/should work & how to tackle all the issues that independence raises - economy, currency, trade, social security, defence etc. etc. etc.

There's pro's & cons to this strategy, but it's worth noting that the polls can get it very wrong - I think it was the 2019 or 2017 election which has the exit polls (I think) quite wrong & they failed to reflect what then happened. So, even with the polls giving Alba 6%, that still needs to transfer to votes.

Well no not really which I was trying to express by saying that I wasn't a lawyer. Is this kind of thing common knowledge amongst the population at large?

As I have said I don't fully understand it but it still reads to me like a deliberate decision not to be involved in the harmonisation for whatever reason rather than a basic misunderstanding.

Clearly this is your area though so happy to defer to you on this, even if you are a bit rude and superior about it all.

And actually I do think that streamlining processes for staff is a valid reason for simplifying things.

Another fracture line. Greens going big on rejoining EU in campaign literature. That is pushing the Indy Lexit vote Alba's way.

@Cismyfatarse

I am no friend of the SNP and have never had any interest in separatism or the politics of splits and differences.

So, I am not really the one to ask this. But, how are they still so popular? Education. Missing money. Political cover ups. Poor governance and money squandered.

Is it simply tribalism combined with a woeful lack of opposition? Or am I missing something they have done or achieved that is swaying voters?

How are they still so popular?

Probably for the same reason Boris is still popular in England - most people don’t really follow politics. They’ll catch a bit of news, they’ll maybe laugh at one of Janey Godley’s voiceovers, they’ll be glad that Nicola is in charge of Scotland’s covid response because she looks like she really cares about people - and all the rest of it just passes by un-noticed.

I’ve mentioned before that I’m an ex-SNP member. I joined from the Lib Dems after the Lib Dems in Westminster voted to bomb Syria. The SNP seemed similar in political outlook - socially conscious, willing to invest in getting children off to a good start in life - and anti-nuclear-weapons.

I’m an ex member because of the silence over the bullying of Cherry by party members - that was the final straw for me. But the more that comes out about the current leadership the happier I am in that decision.

All parties need a decent opposition and the SNP hasn’t had one since Scottish Labour collapsed. IMO.