Tieriffic or tierifying ... who knows!

[dancemom]

Quick title as last thread about to fill up ....

What so many people live with every day- pre 2020- is utterly distressing. Generational poverty, debilitating recovery from cancer, terminal cancer diagnosis no matter your age, addiction, disabilities that restrict employment, the list goes on and on without an ‘end date’ in sight.
I can’t abide the badge-wearing long covid sufferers/I’ve had the vaccine due to my very secret underlying condition/naval gazing bullshit, parading on social media, posting with the latest iPhone from a cosy home, they have absolutely no clue about the shit and chaotic life conditions people live with. Watching those muppets gives me more anxiety than the prospect of catching covid.

It’s our responsibility as (currently) healthy grown ups to keep the world turning with our financial contributions through taxes and our charitable actions as a mechanism to support the areas of society that really need it. Yet we’re the ones accused of being selfish for wanting to get on with life?

[quote PostieModern]@Scottishskifun I suppose it boils down to what you (or I) mean by 'control' the virus. I think that what I mean, and what I'll be comfortable with, is having the 9 vulnerable groups with at least one jag, effective test and trace and probably (sadly) restricting overseas travel for a bit longer. And then opening up slowly but surely[/quote]
Yes this is also what I'm comfortable with the most at risk people are protected and a reopening.

What I'm not comfortable with (which is the SG current plan released to date) is then using positive test numbers as further easing. Simply because using this alone doesn't separate by age, severity/hospital admissions etc and it's going to continue to circulate even when all those who have taken the vaccination have been done.

We are never going to get to zero and this is where the Scottish govt framework is massively floored as its based on getting to zero which is unachievable (tier 0 is 0 positive case rate). Their have been hints that they will change this from JL but I doubt they will be clear on this before the election I suspect because they don't want to show they have to u turn on it.

We are never going to get to zero and this is where the Scottish govt framework is massively floored as its based on getting to zero which is unachievable (tier 0 is 0 positive case rate). Their have been hints that they will change this from JL but I doubt they will be clear on this before the election I suspect because they don't want to show they have to u turn on it.

Yes, this. It's all very well saying "hopefully we'll get back to normal by the summer" and having a threshold at which that will happen, if the threshold is impossible to reach! If children can't be vaccinated we will never get to zero... We may get close to it given what we know about how minimally infectious young children are, but "close" at the moment is tier 1. Which isn't normal, or even normalish. And even tier 0 isn't properly normal either. In any case, I thought we weren't doing tiers now, but following the same relaxations across the mainland, with tiers brought in if there were any outbreaks. In which case tiers 0 and 1 are meaningless, as an "outbreak" is never going to result in "close to zero" cases?!

I'm not even sure they'd be allowed to change the thresholds now before the election? That sounds a bit like an abuse of purdah to say "actually, it's fine. As we've had a week with no covid hospitalisations you can all go to soft play and the pub again. Oh yes, and do remember to vote for us tomorrow". Do other parties even have a plan for what they would do with the current roadmap if by some miracle they end up in charge (or in coalition)? I assume the whole thing is so toxic they aren't even mentioning it and hoping it goes away?!

I no longer care either way. I don't think we can control it partly because I'm reading a fascinating book about the Plague and it seems as much as things change, they stay the same (the role of travel and the socio-economic impact as examples).

Probably not the best reading material during a pandemic but it's really interesting.

Interesting

The churches that claimed closing down public worship went too far for the SGs powers have won their case. Wonder if other organisations can now use that ruling?

@ResilienceWanker I'm surprised by this.

He said the Scottish government regulations disproportionately interfered with the freedom of religion secured in the European Convention on Human Rights.

Just looking at EU Charter of Fundamental Rights re Article 24 Children...

In all actions relating to children, whether taken by public authorities or private institutions, the child''s best interests must be a primary consideration.

I think they could argue closing schools, softplays, playparks, sports and activities were in the best interest of public health, but I don't see how they could argue that all of this was in the children's best interests. Perhaps you could counter that the NHS not being overwhelmed was in children's best interests, but that's not been the case for a while and I'm sure there were points last year when it wasn't, either.

Similarly the UN Convention on the rights of the child:

Article 31
1. States Parties recognize the right of the child to rest and leisure, to engage in play and recreational activities appropriate to the age of the child and to participate freely in cultural life and the arts.
2. States Parties shall respect and promote the right of the child to participate fully in cultural and artistic life and shall encourage the provision of appropriate and equal opportunities for cultural, artistic, recreational and leisure activity.

Wether you agree with the measures taken or not taken, I'm not sure how anyone could say that they are not exactly the same thing?

I.e we accept that basic human rights have been forfeited by many different groups (inc religious groups and children) in the fight against Covid, and that it was either necessary or it wasn't.

Lord Braid agreed the regulations went further than was lawfully allowed.

The ruling seems to accept that the forfeiture of human rights was not necessary?

@ResilienceWanker

Interesting

The churches that claimed closing down public worship went too far for the SGs powers have won their case. Wonder if other organisations can now use that ruling?

Yes, just heard that- v.interesting. Hospitality industry could be taking action next? Also think if there was one U.K. strategy in place, rules exactly the same country-wide it would have made things clearer per sector. As it stands, the SG have to answer for their decisions independently (how ironic) and could be exposed to more of these actions.

Also interesting in the news today, Angela Merkel cancelled a planned Easter 5-day shutdown, admitted it was a mistake. (How refreshing to hear from a government) . They’ve had further lockdown protests and there’s an election imminent.
Relevant to earlier post on here today about NS perhaps lifting some restrictions ahead of election? 🧐 Plus further proof that the tide is turning on the lockdowns. People are not prepared to comply without justification any more.

The first minister confirms that a further 692 people have tested positive for Covid – which is 3.1% of the tests carried out yesterday.
This takes the total number of positive cases in Scotland to 215,175.
There are 321 people in hospital with recently confirmed Covid-19, a decrease of 23, and 31 in intensive care, up three from yesterday.
There have also been three more deaths recorded in the past 24 hours of people who tested positive in the previous 28 days.

@ResilienceWanker SG is still following the strategic framework as published in February which includes the tier system approach (this is from the SG covid website BTW)

The route map of dates only actually goes up to the 17th of May. After which it's early June and late June. But yes if still following the strategic framework this includes the tier system still and rates per 100000.

Yes, I was just discussing how it would fit with children's rights to leisure/ education etc with DH over lunch. The UN Convention on children's rights has been incorporated directly into Scottish law now, I think, so there's an extra level of consideration. Also the right to family life, in terms of being prevented from seeing family members elsewhere in the country, or even in eg nursing homes/ hospital, though I suppose the public health thing comes into play a bit more then. I do wonder if a can of (unexpectedly delicious) worms has been opened.

Is the stuff listed for the 26th April the equivalent of us all moving to level 3? Or is that a separate thing?

[quote Scottishskifun]@ResilienceWanker SG is still following the strategic framework as published in February which includes the tier system approach (this is from the SG covid website BTW)

The route map of dates only actually goes up to the 17th of May. After which it's early June and late June. But yes if still following the strategic framework this includes the tier system still and rates per 100000.[/quote]
Thanks! Yes, I must be getting confused with what is reported/ trailed by JL and others, what NS actually says to Parliament or at the briefing, and what is actually the policy/ guidance on the SG website! Which of course aren't always the same thing.

Oh, and thanks dancemom! That's quite an increase in case numbers isn't it? (though Wednesday always seems to be bad) Bugger.

@cyclingbear

Is the stuff listed for the 26th April the equivalent of us all moving to level 3? Or is that a separate thing?

I think so, broadly speaking. Though some things (hospitality especially) seem a bit more relaxed than in the original tier 3. Eg booze is allowed outside, and inside is allowed to serve up til 8pm (?) whereas before it was 6pm. No booze inside though still of course. Happy about the loosening, but not sure I understand why, unless it's assumed that tier 3 could last for a looooong time again, so it's to stop us all whinging. Maybe some things have been taken away too, which I've not noticed.

494,805 new vaccinations registered in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 268,651 1st doses / 134,547 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 34,940 / 13,581
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 14,724 / 13,456
NI 7,335 / 7,571

Thanks @ResilienceWanker

Thanks @dancemom
Oh no those case numbers up today!
Wonder if that's the outbreaks in W Lothian?

A lot more tests carried out today too so the percentage is still just 3.1%

Just been reading on the SG interactive dashboard that 57 of the cases reported today are backdated from a few weeks ago.

Ah that makes it not quite so bad then @mibbelucieachwell
Still over 600 again!

Although it does also suggest there are cases missing which will be added later, due to a data flow issue.

[quote PostieModern]@HadEnoughOfBears

Is it schools that's driving the huge rise in cases around Livingston? It seemed crazy that one area had gone from zero cases in one 7 day period to about 80 in the next
I had heard about cases at Peel Primary tgiugh[/quote]
It seems to be. Peel has had to close completely this week as too many staff now isolating and Livi Village Primary is also under strain.

I wonder if it should matter though if hospital cases / deaths haven't been affected?

@HadEnoughOfBears I guess they won't know if it impacts on hospitalisations/deaths for another wee while. They should be able to inform the approach going forward using the data they can gather linked to those cases over the next 2-3 weeks surely though.

[quote jerometheturnipking]@HadEnoughOfBears I guess they won't know if it impacts on hospitalisations/deaths for another wee while. They should be able to inform the approach going forward using the data they can gather linked to those cases over the next 2-3 weeks surely though.[/quote]
Yes.

I think it will be interesting to see.