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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

The Tierany of Tiers

999 replies

dancemom · 11/03/2021 18:39

Teirtastic times ahead ....

OP posts:
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Littlemissweepy · 16/03/2021 21:53

It’s not justified - end of April I expect most areas in England will (still) have lower case rates and better vaccination rates.

My DP lives in England and I have not seen him since October. He is vaccinated and coming up for Easter, honestly fuck it.

IsurviveonCoffeeandWinein2021 · 16/03/2021 21:57

@Littlemissweepy I think that would be allowed anyway up here? Someone with more knowledge can hopefully help but did we not have an exemption for no cohabiting couples this time? Given the so called border isn't legally enforceable it will be fine I think

Scottishskifun · 16/03/2021 22:02

@anon444877

I'm wondering what the justification is for not announcing travel within ruk in line with travel within Scotland on 26 April.

It will be travel within an area with the same or better vaccination rates as Scotland.

Perhaps about demonstrating political control and difference.

Where was that announced you had to visit a place with same vaccination rates as Scotland within rest of UK?

I mean my LA is like 3rd worst for vaccination rates and know where my parents live is way ahead (onto the 40s) and with low rates but that's a bit of a weird one..... No idea how they would enforce that either.... Can't see accommodation say oh my area vaccination rate is lower then Scotlands sorry you can't stay.......

Wakeupin2022 · 16/03/2021 23:56

I'm getting thoroughly pissed off with this crap now.

All the mothers day get together were in Scotland. None locally to me.

But yet I live in that dirty other place where all the Covid infections come from so I've to be avoided like the plague. (Otherwise referred to as England).

Yet our Covid rates are 40 per 100k and falling. My parents have the joy of being in the Greater Glasgow Health Board so infections are 3x higher than ours and rising (but I'm the dirty one).

I have 4 people (well probably more than 4, but these ones count the most) who are desparate to see my kids (we don't really count at all).

When is it going to be allowed? We are desparate to get in that car and drive up the M6 / M74 but obviously we are worse than shit on her shoe.

Really really pissed off now. Everything she is doing is to win the election in May and she doesn't care about anyone else.

I'm tempted to say as soon as the hotel closures are lifted we're on our way up.

I don't actually mind waiting but it's her continuous complete disregard for Scots who live elsewhere in the UK that passes me off. Now if I lived in the EU she would habe a lot more time for me.......

Sorry for the rant Wink

WouldBeGood · 17/03/2021 06:45

@Wakeupin2022 it is a nightmare. I can say that I’ve driven on the 74 a few times and it’s still busy enough with traffic up and down. Cars plus lorries from England and Europe. It’s impossible to close the route, no matter what she says.

MaxNormal · 17/03/2021 07:17

@Bytheloch do you mind linking to the 2 April areas guidance thing for me?
I did look but can't find it.

Flossy05 · 17/03/2021 08:06

Yep @Wakeupin2022, it’s awful. I haven’t seen my Dad in NI or in-laws down South for over a year. We have no family in Scotland. I wish we had taken the chance last Summer but I didn’t want to risk it.

icanboogieboogiewoogie · 17/03/2021 08:26

@Wakeupin2022 if it's any consolation, my mum lives in Scotland but too far away for me to see her on Mother's Day either.

At no point has Nicola said the infection rates are worse in England. Some areas are worse, some have significantly better rates. Just like in Scotland. We are currently not allowed to leave our own local authority area, which includes travelling to England. There is no 'ban' on travel to England. And, quite frankly, if you want to go to England - go. No one is going to stop you. If you're the person in the higher prevalence area, perhaps you'd be the one taking the virus to them.

Lots of people on here (me included) unhappy that they can't leave their LA area, but similarly, lots of people on here very concerned about people travelling to their area from west central Scotland, and potentially bringing the virus to them. It's about balance.

Wakeupin2022 · 17/03/2021 08:41

ican I don't want to go to England. It is currently 'illegal' for me to travel to Scotland for a non essential reason.

I do not plant on travelling tomorrow, or even next month, or the month after that.

I want her to acknowledge that not all Scots live in Scotland. I want her to say we want to open the border as soon as we can. Give an indication (not set in stone) of when that can be.

It's been illegal for me to travel and see my family since November last year I think, yet if I lived in another country I could have done so!

We've all had to make sacrifices. I am not grumbling at that. I've not left my county here since November I think.

And I disagree re messaging. She has said or implied many times the infections are from England.

WouldBeGood · 17/03/2021 08:50

It’s very clear she’d like the mythical border to be shut forever.

I also agree that she’s at the very least implied many times that the virus is being imported from England.

It’s also a good distraction from the shady goings on of her government.

rookiemere · 17/03/2021 08:52

@Wakeupin2022 unfortunately I think you'll be waiting a long time for that statement.
I remember when we went to England last summer we still weren't entirely sure it was legal, but by my understanding on 3rd April ( or might be 2nd) the stay at home rule becomes guidance rather than a rule, so presumably couldn't be fined for travelling between the two countries and then on 26th April if travel restrictions within Scotland are lifted, I think by default that means that travel to and from England would also be allowed. We'll never hear her say it though.

GoLightlyontheEarth · 17/03/2021 08:57

I am still not entirely clear when self catering will be allowed To open. Is it 26th April? I had a week away booked starting 24 th April which was a cancelled holiday from last year. It’s infuriating.

rookiemere · 17/03/2021 09:05

Tourist accommodation is from 26th April. There's a really helpful couple of pages with timelines laid out on Ian Murray's (labour MP in Edinburgh)FB feed.

WaxOnFeckOff · 17/03/2021 09:09

I've not looked at the detail, but since last Friday were we not allowed to meet up as 2 2s for exercise and socially and yet technically we are still only to leave the house for essential reasons?

I'm happy that socialising is essential, but are those things technically not at odds? Or have I picked it up wrong?

GreenlandTheMovie · 17/03/2021 09:15

I live close to the border. It isn't, and never has been "closed". The A1 has been busy throughout, with numerous cars crossing over "the border" at any time of day. People in Scottish villages close to "the border" tend to shop in England.

There were a couple of rumours of car drivers going to Morris sons being "sent back" by police, but this was a while ago. Enforcement of the travel ban is more likely within Scotland than crossing "the border".

Added to that, there are numerous small riads crossing "the border" in multiple places. There's been a diversion sign on one of these which goes from England to Scotland throughout the pandemic. Ie the "diversion" sends you into Scotland. I dont know if it's someone's idea of a joke, but anyone following it could reasonably argue that they are following a diversion.

I doubt if this "border closed" nonsense would stand up in court anyway. The Scottish courts (and indeed European courts) constantly overrule the more fantastical Scottish government primary legislation, and I wouldn't be convinced that this piece of secondary legislation not to cross 'the border'" would stand up in court either. It seems excessive from a public health perspective.

rookiemere · 17/03/2021 09:23

If you download the 3 page pdf at the right it lays out dates and whats happening from when www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-timetable-for-easing-restrictions/

That's really interesting @GreenlandTheMovie . We're thinking of meeting our English relatives at a halfway point for a day over Easter. We were pretty sure we wouldn't be stopped but not 100% certain.

I actually feel quite positive about the announcements. Maybe because the St Johns Wort has properly kicked in or because I'm mostly strung out on painkillers due to a trapped nerve in my neck.

I know some of it is nonsensical and contradictory, but I feel good seeing dates when things will reopen and it does seem to suggest that they've moved away from zero covid as an aim. Also feeling vaguely positive about our August Majorca trip. Yesterday morning I would have said it was 50/50 if we were going but now it feels about 70/30 in favour - of course still depends if we have to pay for tests for the teens in both families as adults should have had both jabs by then.

Scottishskifun · 17/03/2021 09:29

@icanboogieboogiewoogie SG website states currently nonessential travel between Scotland and the rest of the UK and the wider common travel area is prohibited as a measure to reduce the risk of importation of the virus......

It's written in legislation banning non essential travel including CRA. I don't know what clearer statement is required which shows they think it comes from elsewhere.....

I have found the part about particular areas - I'm assuming this is related to when England had tier 3 levels and Scotland said no travel between Scotland and tier 3 England areas. Reality none of it is enforceable and large areas of England has a much lower rate than Scotland!

mibbelucieachwell · 17/03/2021 09:48

All the talk of higher prevalence areas is annoying anyway. In absolute numbers (which we rarely hear at local area level) the difference between a higher prevalence area and a lower prevalence area can be one household. Presumably it would make more sense to ban people in higher risk demographics (eg households with school age children or people who work in close contact with others) from travelling. I'm not suggesting this. These blanket bans do my nut in.

Also, St Andrews telling its students not to go home at Easter. Nice, after urging them to take up places in halls of residence and leaving their international students who couldn't return after Christmas to sort out their belongings they had left on site. Eh how? Night time online sessions for students who had to remain in their country in a different time zone, lovely.

GreenlandTheMovie · 17/03/2021 10:21

[quote Scottishskifun]@icanboogieboogiewoogie SG website states currently nonessential travel between Scotland and the rest of the UK and the wider common travel area is prohibited as a measure to reduce the risk of importation of the virus......

It's written in legislation banning non essential travel including CRA. I don't know what clearer statement is required which shows they think it comes from elsewhere.....

I have found the part about particular areas - I'm assuming this is related to when England had tier 3 levels and Scotland said no travel between Scotland and tier 3 England areas. Reality none of it is enforceable and large areas of England has a much lower rate than Scotland![/quote]
Surely you must be aware that individuals penalised have the right to challenge such decisions in court?

And do you understand the difference between primary and secondary legislation? Particularly in a unicameral parliament such as we have within Scotland, the legislative detail in the latter is not particularly well debated at times.

It is the courts who decide whether such legislation meets the wider public interest test so as to justify the penalty imposed, not the Scottish government. There is extensive case law, but to summarise, first of all the Scottish government would need to price that it was acting intra vires and disorive the presumption against such restrictions on the bass that human rights case law states that such restrictions must be short term and only employed where the safety of the entire population as a whole is under imminent threat. I dont see how a cross border travel ban at this late stage in the pandemic would stand up in court. It's disproportionate and difficult to justify in both fact and law.

The Scottish government has a fair bit of previous form for introducing legislation that the courts have slapped down. Minimum alcohol pricing was slapped down by the advocate general of the European Court of justice, which the SG was able to ignore only due to Brexit. The Named Person's legislation quietly disappeared when it was challenged on human rights grounds. We wouldn't even have the EU-led extension of FOI rights to environmental concerns if the SG had it within their devolution army remit, as they were dead set against it when consulted.

Why don't people in Scotland know thus basic stuff about the way their own country is governed? Why isnt it being taught in schools, or at least reported in newspapers?

I can't believe people aren't aware that government legislation can be challenged in the courts and that this is a normal part of a healthy functioning democracy. This is basic separation of powers stuff that is taught in schools in the rest of Europe.

Scottishskifun · 17/03/2021 10:38

@GreenlandTheMovie which all costs money..... I personally don't have the spare cash to employ a human rights specialist QC to argue the case in court! Thus stuck having to vaguely follow/examine exemptions incase I get stopped etc.

florafoxtrot · 17/03/2021 10:46

Notwithstanding the enforceability of the rules or the inclination of individuals as to sticking to them. The Stay at Home guidance says that at present you can't leave your house except for essential reasons, from early April the message shall be Stay Local which means we can't shouldn't leave our LA area. From 26th April that rule will be lifted for both travel within Scotland and to the rUK. I'm struggling to understand why there seems to be a perceived difference between travel to England vs travel within the rest of Scotland. They are both permitted at the same time? And it also seems that the guidance to stay local in England (defined as staying within your own town etc.) won't end until earliest 12th April. Is the displeasure coming from the difference between 12th April and 26th April?

Scottishskifun · 17/03/2021 10:54

@florafoxtrot because they haven't actually confirmed 26th of April for travel with rUK SG website currently only states 26th for Scotland wide travel. They have given an aim but haven't committed to it. For many people this has potential large impact.
Link to what is stated below a few pages before outlines date aim but under 26th doesn't state rest of the UK.

www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-timetable-for-easing-restrictions/pages/travel/

GoLightlyontheEarth · 17/03/2021 11:01

I just find all these rules and restrictions impossible to understand.

florafoxtrot · 17/03/2021 11:14

[quote Scottishskifun]@florafoxtrot because they haven't actually confirmed 26th of April for travel with rUK SG website currently only states 26th for Scotland wide travel. They have given an aim but haven't committed to it. For many people this has potential large impact.
Link to what is stated below a few pages before outlines date aim but under 26th doesn't state rest of the UK.

www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-timetable-for-easing-restrictions/pages/travel/[/quote]
Thank you for the link and explanation, I do understand that this would be distressing for many people.

ApolloandDaphne · 17/03/2021 11:17

@mibbelucieachwell

All the talk of higher prevalence areas is annoying anyway. In absolute numbers (which we rarely hear at local area level) the difference between a higher prevalence area and a lower prevalence area can be one household. Presumably it would make more sense to ban people in higher risk demographics (eg households with school age children or people who work in close contact with others) from travelling. I'm not suggesting this. These blanket bans do my nut in.

Also, St Andrews telling its students not to go home at Easter. Nice, after urging them to take up places in halls of residence and leaving their international students who couldn't return after Christmas to sort out their belongings they had left on site. Eh how? Night time online sessions for students who had to remain in their country in a different time zone, lovely.

There has been an outbreak of Covid within the student population at St Andrews and it is believed to be the new variant (11 confirmed cases and 40 isolating). This is why they are being advised not to travel during Spring Break and to be honest that is the guidance form the SG at the moment anyway. They shouldn't be travelling out of the local area. None of the students were encouraged to take up places in halls. In fact they were advised not to where possible. This has been made clear. I am student at the university and have all the e mails stating their stance.
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