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SNP supporters and the hate crime bill

456 replies

Ifyourefeelingsinister · 10/03/2021 20:52

Scottish government are passing a bill tonight that will give hate crime protection to every protected characteristic - apart from sex. Yes, women apparently don't register as far as hate crimes go.

But cross dressers will be protected so that's fine - don't insult a man in a kilt even in your own home, as you could be arrested. However, every day misogyny - that's fine.

SNP supporters - are you ok with this????

OP posts:
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19
SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 12/03/2021 14:59

Aye Joanna. I fear that NS not only dropped the ball but handed it to those who feel that women shouldn’t have a voice.

And then see what happens.

RIP Sarah.

WouldBeGood · 12/03/2021 15:00

I’m going to vote for whoever can beat the SNP.

Much as I am angry with Labour I don’t think they are ideologically committed to passing these laws in the same way the SNP are. And I really would like a more varied Parliament.

hilbil21 · 12/03/2021 15:17

I emailed Jackie Baillie and she replied within 10 mins (makes me think it's not the first email she's had about it). She's my constituency MP. This was her reply :

Thank you for getting in touch in regard to the passing of the Hate Crime (Scotland) Bill.

A number of very serious issues were raised in the debate surrounding the hate crime bill with which I had grave concerns. Indeed on a number of occasions the Scottish Government has been forced to rethink its' proposed plans.

While I support the general consolidation of hate crime legislation in Scotland, the SNP has handled this bill shambolically and Humza Yousaf, the Justice Minister, has a lot to answer for.

The Justice Committee, led by Conservative MSP Adam Tomkins, managed to pass a number of amendments which allowed for the worst aspects of the SNP's plans to be removed or redefined.

For clarification, I was unable to be in parliament yesterday due to a prior commitment and therefore did not cast any vote either for or against the bill.

If there is anything else that you wish to raise, please do not hesitate to get in touch.

UnderHisAye · 12/03/2021 15:19

Claire Baker sent me the same email twice in 20 minutes, which makes me think she's had to send it on to more than one person...

I am shocked that JB didn't vote though; must have been a very important prior commitment!

hilbil21 · 12/03/2021 15:22

There's only something like a 200 vote difference between Jackie and the SNP here, so I will be voting for her anyway not matter what she had said tbh. I was just interested in her reply.

hilbil21 · 12/03/2021 15:35

Just received a further email:

Apologies I should have added that I supported a number of amendments in the name of my colleague, Johann Lamont, that were addressing the issue of hate crimes against women. The vote on amendments took place on Wednesday when I was in parliament.

happygolurkey · 12/03/2021 15:40

the problem with basing your vote on the Hate Bill/GRC is that it's not an SNP problem, it's a cross-party problem. Last night's vote shows even if SNP didn't hold the majority the bill still would have passed. (I sympathise with people's quandary though as I am in the exact same boat).
I briefly rejoined the Labour Party a while back, having previously been a member in my idealistic youth. I had to leave because of the sheer hostility toward women. 300 were expelled in one week at one point because of belonging to a group chat which discussed sex based rights. The tipping point for me was Andy Burnham's comments that anyone with concerns about self-id was not welcome in the Labour Party, followed by a couple of disgusting tweets from Women's Officers - one invited women with concerns about id to 'suck my lady*k.'
I know a couple of brave women have spoken out in the Labour Party, in particular Johann Lamont, but they are very few and far between.
What I'd say about Jackie Baillie is words come cheap. Happy to spout all that about 'SNP shambles' etc .but doesn't put her money where her mouth is and vote. Hardly anyone was in parliament for it - they voted at home.
Murdo Fraser made a good contribution to the debate, however, I personally couldn't vote Tory as I don't agree with any of their other policies.

happygolurkey · 12/03/2021 15:43

apologies - just read the update that Jackie Baillie did vote for Lamont's amendments. Well done Jackie.
However, still don't think there is the will there generally throughout the party to stand up for women.

UnderHisAye · 12/03/2021 15:46

I agree @happygolurkey Labour have ruled themselves out of being a viable alternative for me. Their approach to women has been vile since the days of Lily Madigan.

hilbil21 · 12/03/2021 15:52

Thank you for replying, I learn most of what I know about it on here.. I'm a bit clueless and just trying to learn.

UnderHisAye · 12/03/2021 15:55

I think it is really hard to keep on top of it all lately @hilbil21

anon444877 · 12/03/2021 16:02

Whilst I agree somewhat about labour, Keir Starmer has proven a good advocate of minorities, see anti semitism, I'd hope they'd take a less extreme stance on some of the implications of this legislation, and further more, the SNP are the main party to blame for this shambolic legislation being enacted in its current form here.

I suppose some people held their nose and voted for it because the protection of some minorities under one umbrella seems better than current provision.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 12/03/2021 16:18

I'm having the same dilemma of who to vote for. Unless the polls shift, labour are the best chance of unseating the SNP incumbent (who is standing down actually), so voting for the Tories in the first vote may be a waste. As above, it was the SNP who were the architects of this shitshow, and labour did at least table and vote for amendments that would have protected women's sex-based rights. The SNP gave them all a horrible choice by refusing to remove section 2. As Murdo Fraser (I think it was) said, they would have had unanimity if they'd stuck to the other two sections, or maybe even by allowing some of the other amendments. As it was, the other parties had to choose between voting for all the anti-women stuff, or voting against the race/disability etc. discrimination stuff.

Getting shot of the SNP (or at least denting their majority) has to be the priority. Maybe it'll have to be Labour/Tories after all.

SempreSuiGeneris · 12/03/2021 16:32

YouCannot. Similar situation here. I will be sticking with Labour for 1st Pref on basis that if they and others get enough traction they can then pressure to push the amendments ASAP. For me it is a no-brainer because the SNP vote share is already over represented at Constituency level. This means that if they lose a Seat they wouldn't pick it back up on the List even if their share of the vote stays where it was last time.

Still considering the List because it is a matter of working out what will happen with the Green vote and how best to impact that. Last time quite a few Labour 2nd votes went Green in addition to the 4% or so SNP switchers who had worked out that they were already topped out on the Constituencies.

LizzieMacQueen · 12/03/2021 16:49

I'm going to post the stock answer I got from the Greens MSP.

Thank you for your email regarding the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill.

As you might be aware the Bill was scrutinised by the Parliament’s Justice Committee, of which my colleague John Finnie MSP is a member, and it was clear during its deliberations that there were serious concerns regarding the balance between protections for those who may be victims of hate crimes and protections for freedom of speech. These concerns meant that John met with the justice spokespeople from all the other parties to discuss these issues fully on a number of occasions, to ensure that these concerns were properly balanced, with protections for both potential victims of hate crime and for freedom of speech.

The Scottish Green Party will be voting for the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill at Stage 3, we are satisfied the correct balance has now been struck in this Bill.

Thank you again for your email.

happygolurkey · 12/03/2021 16:51

just trying to learn.

same here hilbil21. Am doing a lot of head scratching just now trying to piece stuff together and thinking about how I'm going to vote. Good on you for e-mailing Jackie Ballie about it and helping make sure politicians realise how strongly women feel.

WouldBeGood · 12/03/2021 16:55

The Greens are just appalling on this.

dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 12/03/2021 17:22

@LizzieMacQueen

I'm going to post the stock answer I got from the Greens MSP.

Thank you for your email regarding the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill.

As you might be aware the Bill was scrutinised by the Parliament’s Justice Committee, of which my colleague John Finnie MSP is a member, and it was clear during its deliberations that there were serious concerns regarding the balance between protections for those who may be victims of hate crimes and protections for freedom of speech. These concerns meant that John met with the justice spokespeople from all the other parties to discuss these issues fully on a number of occasions, to ensure that these concerns were properly balanced, with protections for both potential victims of hate crime and for freedom of speech.

The Scottish Green Party will be voting for the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill at Stage 3, we are satisfied the correct balance has now been struck in this Bill.

Thank you again for your email.

I got that exact same reply from the Greens too.
Ifyourefeelingsinister · 12/03/2021 17:26

So did I. Going to write back and explain the reasons I won't be voting for them anymore - I have previously as second vote.

OP posts:
dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 12/03/2021 17:48

This is the reply I got from a Labour MSP:Thank you for contacting me with your concerns about the Hate Crime Bill.

'Since its publication in May last year, Scottish Labour have carefully considered the Hate Crime Bill, and we have noted the many concerns which have been raised by individuals and organisations about the potential consequences of its provisions.

Prejudice and hate have no place in Scottish society, and so it is important that we have clear and robust laws to allow us to tackle hate crime. Scottish Labour therefore support the principle of Hate Crime legislation and take the view that consolidating existing hate crime into one body of law is an important step.

However, the shortcomings in the Bill as originally drafted were there for all to see. We have been clear that this Bill must uphold the importance of free speech in a democratic society, as well as upholding freedom from prejudice. We have therefore been committed to ensuring the Bill is properly scrutinised and substantially amended. Scottish Labour’s Justice team has met with as many stakeholder groups and campaigners as possible, including religious organisations, women’s groups and equalities organisations, to discuss their perspectives on the Bill, especially regarding freedom of expression. As a result of both stakeholder campaigns and effective parliamentary scrutiny, SNP Ministers eventually admitted that the Bill needed substantial amendment if it was to be fit for purpose.

The Bill underwent a number of very welcome changes at Stage 2. Many of our concerns have now been addressed, especially about Part 2 of the Bill and the “stirring up” offences. Intent must now be proved, and offences of stirring up hatred will be subject to a “reasonable person” test; these changes strengthen protections. Clauses about the performance of plays and the possession of inflammatory material lacked clarity and there were serious concerns about their application, so the removal of these clauses is very welcome.

With the Bill now at Stage 3, remaining parliamentary time is limited, but we are continuing to engage with all groups concerned about the Bill to ensure their voices are heard in the final stages of the process.

Some women’s organisations had concerns that the Bill lacks the nuance required to address hatred towards women and could therefore have unintended consequences. Scottish Labour therefore welcome the establishment of the Working Group on Misogynistic Harassment to consider the development of a separate offence relating to gendered violence against women.

We are also sympathetic to arguments that failing to include a sex aggravator in the Bill could send the wrong message. We support including sex as a protected characteristic in Part 1 of the Bill. When the Working Group concludes its work we expect legislation on misogynistic harassment offences to be developed, but in the meantime there must be no intervening gap in the law regarding hate against women.

We recognise that provisions protecting free speech have significant implications for the operation of the Bill. Various freedom of expression amendments were discussed during Stage 2, but it was agreed that further work was necessary to ensure that drafting of these sections was acceptable. Scottish Labour take seriously the need to achieve an appropriate balance in the Bill. To ensure protections are enhanced, we have worked cross-party and with external organisations to inform the development of the Government’s Stage 3 amendment. We are glad to see that the Government has listened and that the freedom of expression protections will now apply to all protected characteristics, rather than the piecemeal approach that was originally in the Bill. We will carefully consider whether any other amendments are necessary in this area.

Scottish Labour are determined to see this legislation amended and improved. We hope that, by doing so, the Bill will deliver on its aims and uphold the rights and protections necessary for a safer and more tolerant Scotland. Ultimately, however, tackling hate crime requires more than legislative action, it requires education, societal change and a concerted effort to build a culture of respect and inclusion. We will work to achieve that wider change in Scotland to prevent prejudice, discrimination and hate. '

WaxOnFeckOff · 12/03/2021 18:18

This is the reply I got to my own admittedly short email from my SNP constituency SNP MSPs assistant. He's standing down anyway.

Thank you for your email to Bruce.

The Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill was passed yesterday by the Scottish Parliament and will become law in due course.

Kind regards,

I was mega impressed 🤔

Blurberoo · 12/03/2021 18:20

@dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby I got exactly the same one from my MSP- NE Scotland

UnderHisAye · 12/03/2021 18:21

Bloody hell @WaxOnFeckOff that's dreadful

Blurberoo · 12/03/2021 18:22

@WaxOnFeckOff Grin he’s honest in that respect at least!

WaxOnFeckOff · 12/03/2021 18:35

I just replied saying that I had seen the result and was disgusted and not voting SNP,. Well, I wasn't voting for him anyway but he doesn't know that. Unless of course I am on the naughty list which that devious shite Alyn Smith confirmed exists. I may have told them to fuck off when they've come to my door in the past...

Out of the 8 I had that reply and one from Murdo confirming he was voting against and no other replies.

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