Just in tiers with it all now ....

[dancemom]

New Thread, same old situation....

@WannaCapybara

Starmer is an unbelievable disappointment. Why doesn't he see that if he made Labour the pro-Europe party they'd be in Government at the next election?

Isn't he? And Scottish Labour - they used to be socialists but any sentiment of that died years ago. The fact they spent near £50m fighting equal pay for women at GCC ( which the SNP put through once in power and , quite rightly, paid out millions to women that had been short changed).

@anon444877 no I'm not. I should be but I find them so upsettingly awful!

I agree and I disagree. We don't have full control of our finances and so cannot make significant changes to people's financial circumstances. Things like the baby box are creative attempts at least to solve poverty related problems. It's a bit like putting cotton wool in plug hole instead of a plug but at least it's an effort. On an individual level hundreds of families really benefit from the box.

In 2014 I looked at the financials and I listened to economic experts and I used my common sense from looking at similar countries. I came to the conclusion that we would be fine. I realise that many came to a different conclusion. I'll do exactly the same if we get another chance at a referendum. As it is just now I don't have any up to date information so can't say that we would be worse off.

I am genuinely sorry, and I do honestly mean that, that the thought of a referendum contributes to people's stress at an already difficult time. But for me, and others like me, the thought of it is keeping me going! I find the outlook of the Tory government, that realistically we aren't going to get shot of, toxic and frightening. The poor, the disabled, carers... where is their compassion for these people? I think we're heading towards becoming like America particularly given Brexit. You only need to look at Texas just now to see how that ends. ( I know there are complex issues surrounding Texas but it's a rare example of the extent of American poverty making the mainstream news) The UK might be a huge economy but that is no use whatsoever if that money never trickles down to its people.

And yes Starmer WTF 🤷🏻‍♀️

On the "criticism in politics" front.... I can't read the ST NO article, but I'm not surprised, if he has expressed strong opinions that he is getting abuse. It's not limited to politics though, sadly. Strong opinions (or even just working or being active in an area) on anything "controversial" nowadays seems to result in the same personal abuse - with opponents attacking or insulting the person rather than attacking the arguments made.

I work in an area that often involves projects that have a degree of local or national opposition. I have a very, very minor role in these, generally working as a contractor/ freelance advisor to the developer. Nevertheless I have been followed round various SM accounts by members of protest groups. Companies have started training staff in how to deal with protestors who disrupt entry to sites and threaten and intimidate employees and contractors. It's rare to turn up at a conference or public inquiry without being jeered and in some cases being spat at or having things thrown (though the police step in at that point!).

The activists generally stay on the right side of the law, technically, as what they do is seen as a valid form of protest. However, it is really grim and I hate the way this is now seen as a usual and acceptable campaigning strategy... presumably to intimidate people into silence or make it personally so unpleasant to work for a company that employees resign or contractors go somewhere else for work. I'm totally in favour of protest and free speech in debate or whatever, but when it slips over into personal abuse and threats to people's livelihoods I do wonder whether the people doing the protesting/ campaigning are truly interested in their "cause", or whether they are just enjoying the bullying and disruption.

Could have written your post myself @kurtrussellsbeard

I am under no illusion that an independent Scotland would be some sort of paradise. It might not even be very different at all.

What I will never stop wanting to change is that our votes don't count. That's the root of it for me. Our votes don't count, and that means what we want and need doesn't have to figure in the thinking of those at the top.

I want a shorter and more direct line between me and the people in power.

@NotAnActualSheep I think the relative anonymity afforded by social media, and chat sites like this, really highlight and emphasise the worst in people.

Almost as if you having an important job or being in the public eye makes you fair game. It's just a joke, you should be able to take robust criticism etc etc. Yes and no. Criticism should be delivered carefully in my opinion. It does none of us any favours to be abusive.

I tend to frequent the Scotnset board the most and I see some horrible comments about Nicola Sturgeon and Devi Sridhar in particular. Criticism of them? Fine. Shitty comments are just low and make the place feel like the mean girls playground. I haven't checked Twitter today but I would imagine Neil Oliver is in for similar. It's really not okay.

@Scottishskifun

Whatever they do they need to be more transparent about it and the reasons the decisions were made.

My LA on paper should have been in tier 1 for a good amount of time but then the excuse was given that due to reliance on the next LA hospital and being intrinsically linked it wasn't possible...... Which raised the question what the point of the thresholds were!
Similar with Edinburgh really was deemed not a good idea as people would then go to Edinburgh..... That's hardly their fault and wasn't one of the criterias at all!

I am fed up with the lack of transparency on what data has been examined and what weighting that then had to setting a decision. People need to know its worth the continuing effort which definitely hasn't been the case previously.

Yes, agree with this! Hope they take note with v2 of their road map... Can't say I'm holding my breath though.

Twitter is so much worse, a lot of people seem to have no internal standards of decent behaviour online to follow.

I suppose that's it, I find another Indy fight to be a drain, alienating and the outcome for Scotland likely to be worse, whereas you feel it'll be great and there's upside potential.

Yes exactly. I never fail to be amazed at how wildly people's opinions can differ. It's fascinating really.

not that sucks - treating people nicely is so important. You're just doing a job like all of us. I've just watched one of our volunteers for a group I'm in being treated horribly by a local councillor - horrid.

[quote kurtrussellsbeard]@NotAnActualSheep I think the relative anonymity afforded by social media, and chat sites like this, really highlight and emphasise the worst in people.

Almost as if you having an important job or being in the public eye makes you fair game. It's just a joke, you should be able to take robust criticism etc etc. Yes and no. Criticism should be delivered carefully in my opinion. It does none of us any favours to be abusive.

I tend to frequent the Scotnset board the most and I see some horrible comments about Nicola Sturgeon and Devi Sridhar in particular. Criticism of them? Fine. Shitty comments are just low and make the place feel like the mean girls playground. I haven't checked Twitter today but I would imagine Neil Oliver is in for similar. It's really not okay.
[/quote]
Yes, I agree. It seems that at least half the comments after any tweet/ FB post from any politician are just abuse, or faux naive questions about something totally unrelated that just seem to be hounding. I don't know how they cope if they actually read half of these! I hope people wouldn't actually say this stuff to their faces, but I'm never entirely sure any more.

I also don't like the whole "I pay your wages, why haven't you answered my question" arrogant approach that they must be wholly engaged with whatever nonsense random internet wankers choose to spout... Criticism is absolutely fine, as you say, but, come on folks, at least try to be a little polite and respectful! Politicians and their ilk are people too...

@anon444877

not that sucks - treating people nicely is so important. You're just doing a job like all of us. I've just watched one of our volunteers for a group I'm in being treated horribly by a local councillor - horrid.

Well, of course, respect goes both ways! Politicians (local and national) shouldn't treat their constituents (particularly those volunteering their time for a cause) with disdain, it goes without saying. They are supposed to be professionals after all. Ooof... what have we come to?!

It also just makes things...boring.

You see it on here all the time: person A debated person B and they would both rather gnaw their own hands off than admit that maybe there's a tiny bit of right on each side.

It just shuts conversations down and makes for very very dull reading. One of the things I like most about MN is that I feel it's helped my debating skills, as you get backed into corners here at the drop of a hat.

Unfortunately, some people still believe that thebUK subsidises Scotland which simply isn't true.
I do think people are so used to corruption in the UK that they barely notice it anymore. Take Dido's ( married to an MP) failed test and trace system- it has been given ten times the amount of money the mission to Mars cost ( so far). Yet we have parents unable to feed their children or heat their homes.
I do feel that the SNP are a socialist party. For example, they cover the UK Gov bedroom tax and have recently introduced the child poverty payment.
We won't gain independence. I thought we would in 2014 but no, too many people believe the lies. I get the mumsnet is just people on the Internet but I've never experienced such extreme views in real life ( for example, people linking stronger border control to East Germany).
It's strange, I have family all over the UK. Including Wales. They thought it was a good thing that the police were doing checks on travellers into the country for non essential reasons yet in Scotland, the FM is called racist and xenophobic ( whilst at the same time, will vote to stay with a government who explicitly demonstrate those characteristics). Yes, I know that there will be a Labour UK Government at some point in the future but Scotland's voice will still be disregarded as the numbers mean how we vote simply doesn't matter. We'll also still pay millions to maintain subs near our biggest population centre.
I've travelled all over Europe and it's clear to see how badly wrong the UK Government have their priorities. This has been the case for decades.

by the way - Keir Starmer is just saying we need to focus on the vaccine, and the road map right now - brilliant. The the time to investigate the contracts is after the pandemic is over - seems perfectly reasonable to me, I suspect because he knows that painstaking work is needed to establish all the details and make a case stick.

Hardly a ringing endorsement of Hancock.

In theory anon but really it's just looks like someone else doing whatever they want and getting away with it. It's demoralising

Dominic Cummings
Priti Patel
Boris Johnson
Dido Harding
Grant Schapps (lesser issue I suppose)

And now Matt Hancock.

My wee one due to go to school tomorrow. Looking at rUK return dates and panicking slightly. Is this too soon?

@anon444877

by the way - Keir Starmer is just saying we need to focus on the vaccine, and the road map right now - brilliant. The the time to investigate the contracts is after the pandemic is over - seems perfectly reasonable to me, I suspect because he knows that painstaking work is needed to establish all the details and make a case stick.

Hardly a ringing endorsement of Hancock.

The contracts have been investigated though, and the Supreme Court deemed that Hancock acted unlawfully by giving billions to friends, family and Tory donors. That process has been done already.

@kurtrussellsbeard

My wee one due to go to school tomorrow. Looking at rUK return dates and panicking slightly. Is this too soon?

Just remember that our cases are much lower. I'm sure they'll be ok. ❤

Not quite @StarryEyeSurprise at this point all he's guilty of is failing to publish the details of the contracts within the agreed timeframe. The investigation into the actual appropriateness of the awards is ongoing.

Thanks @StarryEyeSurprise that's what I'm hoping but I think I'm just having a last minute wobble!

@kurtrussellsbeard you can check cases by neighbourhood if that would put your mind at rest?

I remember that feeling when they went back in Summer.
Horrible.

And horrifyingly I think he'll get away with it although he very clearly did give the contracts to his pals. Sophie Ridge today said 'we understand that it was a pandemic and you had to spend the money quickly' so he's exonerated from the actual crime already if you ask me.

Another example of corruption that will go unnoticed.

Makes me so furious.

@WannaCapybara yeah we're actually pretty low here. I think I'm more worried about it all going tits up and ending in another lockdown.

@kurtrussellsbeard

Not quite *@StarryEyeSurprise* at this point all he's guilty of is failing to publish the details of the contracts within the agreed timeframe. The investigation into the actual appropriateness of the awards is ongoing.

I see. The UK Governments 's been found to have acted unlawfully through a lack of transparency but the separate issue of what went to who is ongoing. It just stinks doesn't it?