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Scotsnet

Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Scottish education - what’s gone wrong?

248 replies

miimblemomble · 15/02/2021 07:44

Expat / emigrant Scot here.

I keep reading on threads here that ‘Scotland had a great education system but that’s all gone now’ and other similar comments. My SIL lives in Edinburgh, she’s not a fan of Nicola sturgeon or the SNP and part of it’s because of what they have “done to the schools”. I haven’t seen her in over a year now (thanks Covid) so haven’t asked what she means.

So is it true? What has had such a bad effect on the schools? I grew up being told that Scotland had the best education system in the world (not sure how that is measured) but that doesn’t seem to be the case. So what’s happened since?

Cheers all.

OP posts:
ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown · 15/02/2021 20:05

Do you know, I taught before CFE (and might be teaching after, though I doubt it!) and we basically try to do the same things, impart the same knowledge and skills, whatever label is given to it. There must have been half a dozen major changes to the exams while I've been a teacher, some we are happy about and some we trudge through. Remember the SQA sets the exams which dictate what we can teach from S3/4 up - that is not driven by the CFE.

ssd · 15/02/2021 20:10

Well @miimblemomble, I can only talk about my own experiences with my kids. They both did great at school, with me behind them all the way. And I left school at 15 so I'm not a natural. Anyway, mine got a good education and are now in higher education. I didnt expect school to hold all the answers and I got involved a bit but not too much, and towards the end they didn't want me involved at all, as how it should be.
So all in all, my kids got a good education and did well. And I dont know what it was like in the good old days I can only talk if my experience.

ScoldsBridle · 15/02/2021 20:26

“So much of the curriculum (or SQA exams) requires knowledge of how to answer the question rather than underlying understanding of techniques or literature.“

Cismyfatarse This is my main complaint. History and English are so formulaic in their approach. There’s basically a script for many of the answers that’s robotic and rigid and I could almost weep at some of the RUAE because the questions are often so badly phrased that when I look at the marking scheme I’ve often failed to see how they’ve arrived at the answer. And then there’s arbitrary marks for just stating the bleeding obvious. I did one of the Higher RUAE papers and when I looked at the marking scheme I got the same sense of frustration and rage I do when I have to prepare for a competency based interview!

And yes, 1 novel and 6 short poems for English Higher. Not really giving the depth or breadth of literature I’d hoped for (It was 1 large poem and 5 very short stories for Nat 5) I suppose it helps that the Degree courses are 4 years and not 3 like outside of Scotland.

My DD is in S2 and grafting away and doing an acceptable amount of work to tick the ‘engaged’ box but she’s not doing the enthusiastic research she might have done with the encouragement of a teacher in a classroom setting.

Be interested to see what’s announced tomorrow - we should be hearing something about schools shouldn’t we?

Waverless · 15/02/2021 20:39

Oh you've all got me thinking - my p6 finds maths easy, but is too laid back to 'stretch' herself with the options given unless I push it. Normally I'm totally clueless as to what they're doing at school as it's all so vague and there's never any indication of where they are level wise.

Maybe I should be making more effort to challenge her in case she's just bored.

blowinahoolie · 15/02/2021 20:43

"And yes to the focus on Scottish to the exclusion over everything else - my S1 has now done the Scottish Wars of bloody Independence twice, once in P6 and once in S1. And they revisit it again in Higher. Yet he knows nothing about Tudors, the Irish famine, the English civil war, and loads of other stuff which is UK history but not Scottish-specific."

That's interesting RaspberryCoulis as DS in P6 has done Victorians. Nothing to do with Scottish history particularly. They do poetry on run up to Burns night but nothing wrong with this surely?

DS (13) in high school S2 hasn't had much at all to do with Scottish history, mainly world history. Korean War currently.

Both in Scottish state schools.

StarryEyeSurprise · 15/02/2021 20:45

[quote Tallybeebloom]@kurtrussellsbeard
Btw I'm not saying I'm a genuinely talented professional in case I'm accused of sour grapes here. smile As mentioned in a previous post I just about shit myself daily at what I still need to learn.

It definitely doesn't come across that way at all. In my experience the best teachers have often been those with the attitude you describe, knowing they always have more to learn and questioning practice which means they are constantly learning and developing as teachers (and learners themselves). The problem is that often these teachers don't think they have the knowledge or experience to go for leadership roles, and instead they go to those with less experience but with an attitude and air of 'I know what I'm doing', even when it's far from the truth. The problem is when these people get leadership roles, they automatically see themselves as the expert and don't see the gaps in their own knowledge. One of the teachers I mentioned before (who had been teaching less than 5 years before becoming a head teacher) led a staff development session for a group of teachers, someone asked a question which he answered completely incorrectly with absolute confidence. When I asked him afterwards where he got his information from he told me, "oh when people ask you questions like that you just make up the answer on the spot".

@starryeyesurprise
Ok, they must have been class teachers before promotion though. It's near impossible I'd think to become a PT with no teaching experience ( in Scotland).

They need to have classroom experience but someone moving into leadership roles with limited experience is problematic as we then end up with people at the top, making key decisions, without the fundamental understanding that's required to make such decisions.[/quote]
Of course people should gain experience before gaining promotion. It's the same in any industry and the teaching profession is much more regulated in Scotland than some of the other UK countries hence my fear over the Internal Market Bill / Academies being introduced here. .

Re improvements- I'd love to use my six sigma training to streamline and amalgamate a lot of what teachers do. Education should be more centralised- councils have too much autonomy.

There are brilliant resources that aren't communicated to us very well so teachers continually re invent the wheel. The Education Scotland website needs to be made much more user friendly. - we tend to hear about resources via e mail from our HT.

Glow is good, love Tig Tag for example but take it a step further. Have our progression frameworks on there for all curricular areas alongside resources .

There's a lot of CPD so that's good but I find it hard to fit it into my own time so going back to releasing teachers for courses would be good.

Re assumption of mainstream - doesn't work and I know of families where the nursery and family didn't want mainstream for two autistic boys yet child psychologist ( who doesn't know the children) decided on mainstream places. The nursery had to quietly say to the family to take the council to court. Again, the Government needs a better, centralised structure in place and to force councils back to opening units for ASN children. The leader of education at our council is quite harsh to say the least.

Oh, more music specialists in schools. Pupils should have access to this from a young age. I've had one in some schools and not in others.

School lunches- I feel these could be improved. I was in school.today and I thought that for one wee soul, it's probably all he's getting. Go back to school cooks * I know some schools still have them but ours doesn't.

Scotland's education isn't terrible, it's good and I certainly don't think the standard of teaching has declined. I remember higher chemistry - my teacher literally just sat and read a textbook aloud. I got an A but I was studious. I can't believe all the bells and whistles teaching that goes on.

Re maths - I don't remember having the concrete materials we have nowadays to support learners. We still use textbooks- Heinemann, TJ and now Leckie and Leckie are all fantastic. The biggest change I see * re the teaching the different methods. The whole point of this is so that the children understand why there are doing something and to find a strategy which works for them. Those that are naturally good at maths will work out a problem by for example adding on two to get to the nearest ten and then taking the two off the other number but most won't think to do this unless shown. I also tell children what carrying and exchanging means in column subtraction ( ten units can be exchanged for one tens etc) yet I was never taught this and just carried out the steps. I got the right answers but had no understanding behind it.

In summary, it's all there- the Gov just need to join the dots a little better.

Apologies for waffling!!

NCnotAllThat · 15/02/2021 21:33

Re maths and the various methods. I actually have no problem with this and have read that it helps their understanding of what’s behind all the calculations. I’ve enjoyed seeing what my DC is taught in that way and I’ve been the mean mummy and make him do the long winded ways when he already knew the answer verbally (natural ability very much doing way StarryEye described). It’s more that after the methods are taught the actual sums don’t seem to be taxing. The did use the H booklets as well got one for the first lockdown. I don’t think they are using them anymore though. I must add I’ve nothing but praise for actual teachers but was interested in whether this was a cfE issue of not challenging “brighter” children in areas they find easier.

RaraRachael · 15/02/2021 21:45

Many moons ago, my son, who was very able in maths was working on Level F in P7. When he went to S1, the teacher was shocked that he'd been doing work they'd usually do and he had to do the same work as everybody else. So, not challenging able pupils isn't anything new Sad

Orangeblossom1977 · 15/02/2021 21:52

Chatting to my friend in Glasgow with Dc the same age (I'm in England, from Scotland though) we seem to be getting more live lessons. Having to start at the start of the school day with registration etc. It seems more relaxed there in a way in terms of when to start and less lessons overall. Not sure if this is good or bad thing, mine struggle sometimes with an early start (teens)

motherstongue · 15/02/2021 23:02

My DD started P1 as the first cohort under CfE. Her brother whose 6years her senior had gone through the 5–14. All the parents of the P1 intake were called into school for what turned out to be a hard sell of CfE. Asked for my opinion afterwards my exact words were “I think this is going to be a lot of touchy feely nonsense with not a lot of substance” and my opinion hasn’t really changed. There was little enough feedback on the 5-14 but it was pretty much non existent on CfE. My DS, who was more than able at maths was well catered for with the 5-14, lots of extension, tested and moved on frequently. 1to1 or moved up classes for maths with older kids. It was all very positive and he knew (and we knew) what level he had progressed to. My DD on the other hand, not so great at maths but a voracious reader with very good comprehension, little to no extension, lots of helping others in the class, sticking with the class book for what seemed like weeks to the point she was hating it and a feeling of the more able being left to vegetate. Even after getting a report card we had no idea if she was meeting or exceeding expectation as there appeared to be no parameters (or at least none than parents were allowed to be privy to). I am not a fan. However, we are nearly out of it all. DS graduates this year from Uni and DD sitting Highers. Glory be!!!!

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 15/02/2021 23:10

I think the SNP should be flamed for the Curriculum for Excrement alone.

Add to that increasing poverty gaps, large class sizes, decrepit buildings, growing population, exhausted teachers and there you have it.

TheSNP are sound bites - they can’t actually implement anything. I despair at the people who can’t see through them.

My children have actually improved in attainment being home schooled by me - and I work and I’m a crap teacher - but I have gone back to basics with a lot of stuff. And omitted the extra crap. There isn’t enough to time to teach properly the fundamentals

ifitpleasesandsparkles · 15/02/2021 23:26

I work in a school and have first hand experience of what a shitshow the education system is now. It's heartbreaking as I had a wonderful experience of primary school in particular as a child. It's so far removed from that now.

Issues with curriculum for excellence aside, there are too many young and inexperienced teachers now who don't know their arse from their elbow. I have witnessed so many lessons which are blatantly wrong. Primary teaching has become a soft option at university and I see some seriously thick people qualifying as primary teachers. There's an over-reliance on websites like Twinkl and teaching children from PowerPoints. Children don't have a broad and enriching education anymore, instead schools rattle through work at a million miles a minute and rely on "peer assessment" and "self assessment". Homework has gone out the window in most schools. There are 34 kids to a class and every child is pandered to if there's an issue. "Restorative conversations" can take a teacher out of the classroom for up to half an hour whilst they sort out some pathetic playground squabble and the rest of the class are left without a teacher.

My experiences have led to our decision to home school our children. The icing on the cake for me is the lack of risk in children's lives. Every moment is supervised. It's stifling and it's stunting children's development.

ifitpleasesandsparkles · 15/02/2021 23:28

Oh and don't get me started on skills based learning as opposed to knowledge based.

CfE is a skills based curriculum. Not fit for purpose.

ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown · 15/02/2021 23:34

That's a very individual perspective, and not one I recognise after 25+ years working in a range of Scottish secondary schools.

Selkiesarereal · 16/02/2021 07:58

I have been shocked by the amount of errors in the home learning packs which we as parents have had to correct. Does not instill confidence confidence that the teachers even read the stuff before it’s issued. At least at home we are on hand to correct but it does make you wonder what actually happens in the classroom.

blowinahoolie · 16/02/2021 08:18

"The icing on the cake for me is the lack of risk in children's lives."

That's interesting. I have two DC in early years (nursery level) and lots of talk about risky play outdoors for this group of children in this setting. Sad to hear it's not continued on into early primary education.

RaspberryCoulis · 16/02/2021 08:34

I also really agree on the various strategies for Maths. My eldest is a very able, straight A student, gifted in Maths/sciences. The various approaches work for him, he "gets" Maths, sees how they all relate together, how you can use lots of different methods to arrive at the same answer.

DD is a different matter. Maths has been a serious sticking point for her since P1, it's partly a confidence thing, but her strengths definitely lie elsewhere with things like Geography or English. She finds the "here's lots of different strategies to try" utterly confusing. She is one of those kids who would have been much better with the way we learned maths - one correct way of doing things and endless repetition. No moving on until you'd mastered the concept. She is being tutored for Maths (well, before Christmas when he was allowed in the house) and we had this conversation with the tutor - never mind the various strategies, just teach one.

History - yes they did the Victorians in P5 or P6 but it wasn't about the Empire or science advances or whatever, it was very much Victorian Glasgow. Much narrower focus. It appears that the choice of topics for Nat 5 / Higher depends on the school and what they like teaching. DS did the scottish experience in WW1 and the Atlantic slave trade for Nat 5, German unification (yawn) and Scottish wars of independence for Higher.

English - DD is doing Nat 5 this year and has done Macbeth (which I did for Higher back in the day) but hasn't done a novel at all. Poetry and short stories. And for Higher I cannot BELIEVE the kids are still being subjected to the horror which is The Cone Gatherers.

StarryEyeSurprise · 16/02/2021 09:03

@ifitpleasesandsparkles

I work in a school and have first hand experience of what a shitshow the education system is now. It's heartbreaking as I had a wonderful experience of primary school in particular as a child. It's so far removed from that now.

Issues with curriculum for excellence aside, there are too many young and inexperienced teachers now who don't know their arse from their elbow. I have witnessed so many lessons which are blatantly wrong. Primary teaching has become a soft option at university and I see some seriously thick people qualifying as primary teachers. There's an over-reliance on websites like Twinkl and teaching children from PowerPoints. Children don't have a broad and enriching education anymore, instead schools rattle through work at a million miles a minute and rely on "peer assessment" and "self assessment". Homework has gone out the window in most schools. There are 34 kids to a class and every child is pandered to if there's an issue. "Restorative conversations" can take a teacher out of the classroom for up to half an hour whilst they sort out some pathetic playground squabble and the rest of the class are left without a teacher.

My experiences have led to our decision to home school our children. The icing on the cake for me is the lack of risk in children's lives. Every moment is supervised. It's stifling and it's stunting children's development.

34 kids in a class? That's not true, is it? The legal absolute limit for non infants is 33.
blowinahoolie · 16/02/2021 09:04

Not all Scottish educated children are having to learn purely about all things Scottish though RaspberryCoulis. I have actually been impressed with the topics covered in DS1's schooling so far. It's really giving him a broad spectrum of global topics to focus on, not just Scotland this and Scotland that. This isn't North Korea!🤣

blowinahoolie · 16/02/2021 09:07

I look back at my own days of high school learning.... Highland Clearances, Suffragette movement, WW1, etc. My eldest has much more exciting subject matter than I ever did. Horses for courses🤷

blowinahoolie · 16/02/2021 09:09

StarryEyeSurprise you should know by now there's lots of truth bending going on in these threads😂

StarryEyeSurprise · 16/02/2021 09:14

@blowinahoolie

StarryEyeSurprise you should know by now there's lots of truth bending going on in these threads😂
Isn't there!! Hmm
RaraRachael · 16/02/2021 09:45

I would agree about the standard of a lot of new teachers. I am now at the stage when a couple of our young teachers were pupils in our school - they were mediocre to say the least.

Some of the gems I've heard include -
"I seen you hitting her"
"You should have catched the ball"
"I wrote that in his report" Said to me by my son's S2 English teacher
"I've gave you the worksheet"

I could go on an on.

blowinahoolie · 16/02/2021 09:48

Head of Education for a certain local authority in Scotland couldn't spell correctly on Twitter, so I have seen worse RaraRachael.

ifitpleasesandsparkles · 16/02/2021 09:52

@blowinahoolie

"The icing on the cake for me is the lack of risk in children's lives."

That's interesting. I have two DC in early years (nursery level) and lots of talk about risky play outdoors for this group of children in this setting. Sad to hear it's not continued on into early primary education.

Risky play is more than a few tyres and planks of wood for kids to build dens. This is merely a nod to free and risky play. Children cannot evaluate risk for themselves if they are constantly monitored. Children are never without adults during a school day. This is a huge change to how children have played for centuries. Even in the 90s children were left alone in the playground and allowed out of school at lunch to walk to the shops and play in the community. Every playground disagreement is now mediated by staff and games are banned rather than children being left to sort things out for themselves.